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Author Topic: Fakebump (45 messages, Page 1 of 2)
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Stagnant
Joined: Jul 11, 2010

-Everything (Somewhat Inactive)- UDK is beast


Posted: Nov 26, 2010 03:59 PM    Msg. 1 of 45       
I hate bad fake bumps, but a good one is always awesome.

I guess I hate them, because very few people actually use them right.


Joddy
Joined: Jul 3, 2010


Posted: Nov 26, 2010 04:00 PM    Msg. 2 of 45       
i love good fakebumps
no fail fakebumps
+ you are a troll and make an extra thread about that only because i said fakebumps are good

Edited by Joddy on Nov 26, 2010 at 04:02 PM


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

TAKEDOWN IS OUT MattDratt.com


Posted: Nov 26, 2010 04:07 PM    Msg. 3 of 45       
dont care


DEEhunter
Joined: Dec 16, 2006


Posted: Nov 26, 2010 04:13 PM    Msg. 4 of 45       


eliteslasher
Joined: Jun 30, 2008

Crysis 3!!!!!!! All I have to say. :D


Posted: Nov 26, 2010 07:10 PM    Msg. 5 of 45       
I just don't understand why bumps weren't implemented in anything but the the BSP. I mean, especially in scenery, If I WANTED to, I could just make all my scenery as part of the BSP if I am not mistaken since it is all about polies rendered at one time on the screen that causes lag.
Would it really have been that taxing on the engine?


DarkLord0912
Joined: Jan 17, 2009

Works on bigger and better things


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 11:13 AM    Msg. 6 of 45       
Normal mapping wasnt really in use by microsoft game studios until early 2003,H1 was finished I believe in 2001,and H2 came after or on 2003 so thats why H2 has it.

Basically in short wasnt in wide use yet until 2003.

But yeah I do agree but theres nothing you ca do even with fake bump mapping.
Edited by DarkLord0912 on Nov 27, 2010 at 11:13 AM


HaloIsAHorribleGane
Joined: Nov 9, 2010

I'd rather play yahtzee


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 05:48 PM    Msg. 7 of 45       
never, ever, ever, ever use that fake bump technique that does nothing more than give a blacker outline. it looks like garbage and makes the characters look like they should be cell shaded.

halo does not support bump maps, deal with it and focus on trying to get what's available to look good rather than trying in vain to fake some feature that will never look proper.

Edited by HaloIsAHorribleGane on Nov 27, 2010 at 05:48 PM


sierra117
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

If sex is good exercise, why are there fat sluts?


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 06:02 PM    Msg. 8 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: eliteslasher
I just don't understand why bumps weren't implemented in anything but the the BSP. I mean, especially in scenery, If I WANTED to, I could just make all my scenery as part of the BSP if I am not mistaken since it is all about polies rendered at one time on the screen that causes lag.
Would it really have been that taxing on the engine?

That wont entirely work.
The engine will only render 10,000 polies at once, per portal (BSP only)
so, if you put the trees, which are about 1000 polies. You'll only be allowed to have ~5000 polies for the BSP mesh, and 5 trees.

:/


PenGuin1362
Joined: Feb 4, 2008


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 08:12 PM    Msg. 9 of 45       
You can't even call it bump mapping really, it's basically a jacked up ambient occlusion map.


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 09:20 PM    Msg. 10 of 45       
Fakebump is bad because it doesn't even bump. What you need to do is make a multipurpose map, like CMT's spiker.


XlzQwerty1
Joined: Aug 6, 2009


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 09:39 PM    Msg. 11 of 45       
I thought you make a normal, Overlay a bit of it onto the diffuse, then overlay a lot (or all) of it onto the multipurpose? That's what broke taught me to do.


Stagnant
Joined: Jul 11, 2010

-Everything (Somewhat Inactive)- UDK is beast


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 09:41 PM    Msg. 12 of 45       
Really the only way to do it right (In my opinion) is a completemap bake with the normal set as a bump. You need to light it properly and tweak it a bunch in order to make it not super gay.


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 09:44 PM    Msg. 13 of 45       
Isn't this the cartoony way to do it?


HaloIsAHorribleGane
Joined: Nov 9, 2010

I'd rather play yahtzee


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 10:08 PM    Msg. 14 of 45       
you all don't seem to understand the purpose of bump mapping.



similar to normal mapping, the idea bump mapping this is to allow for more detailed lighting and depth without using more geometry. it's all optimization.



you cannot "fake" this effect. you cannot cause light to be cast differently on geometry that does not support bump mapping. every time I see a "fake bump" as you call it on a model, it looks like horse balls. if you really want the model to have more depth and detail, just model it in, stop trying to find workarounds to "fake" it, every time I see a "fake bump" applied to a biped, it's usually eye-gougingly ugly

Edited by HaloIsAHorribleGane on Nov 27, 2010 at 10:11 PM


Spartan_094
Joined: Jan 8, 2008


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 10:34 PM    Msg. 15 of 45       
I like how the blood decal in the picture ruins the normal mapping.


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Nov 27, 2010 10:53 PM    Msg. 16 of 45       
That second picture isn't normal mapping, its called a parallax map.


Geared
Joined: Mar 6, 2009

EPI Creator


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 02:14 AM    Msg. 17 of 45       
lol, higuy i dont think any of them know what that means(except for dee adn a few other modelers) YAY PARALLAX MAPPING!....no flattening of the surface when viewed from an angle :D


HaloIsAHorribleGane
Joined: Nov 9, 2010

I'd rather play yahtzee


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 04:47 AM    Msg. 18 of 45       
idk just googled bump mapping and grabbed a few pictures that popped up


ally
Joined: Jun 23, 2010

Aye Ready


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 05:02 AM    Msg. 19 of 45       
the ghost has a section on bump mapping i found a while back.i've never really looked into it all that much,but incase someone finds it useful...http://ghost.halomaps.org/tutorials/tuts/bump/intro.htm


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 09:57 AM    Msg. 20 of 45       
Shader_environments support bumping. Unlike other games, halo 1 doesn't do 'model' bump mapping.
Fakebump isn't possible or necessary.
Edited by SlappyThePirate on Nov 28, 2010 at 10:04 AM


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 10:11 AM    Msg. 21 of 45       
Yeah, but as it turn out, he's right. He doesn't make maps, as I understand, but bump mapping is used in a lot of games.


DarkLord0912
Joined: Jan 17, 2009

Works on bigger and better things


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 11:26 AM    Msg. 22 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: Geared
lol, higuy i dont think any of them know what that means(except for dee adn a few other modelers) YAY PARALLAX MAPPING!....no flattening of the surface when viewed from an angle :D


I hope you didn't mean me in that?

Parallax mapping also known as offset mapping or virtual displacement mapping,use's a regular normal mapping bitmap or image and goes one step further,and use's a height map to further it's details and accuracy.

So basically 2 is better than one :p


And this thread may continue for awhile because theres alot of methods for fake bump mapping,or as noted above^^ horse balls .


PenGuin1362
Joined: Feb 4, 2008


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 12:33 PM    Msg. 23 of 45       
Bump mapping has essentially been replaced by tangent space normals. Normals give off a more real time lighting angle to details which technically don't exist. Bump mapping more so throws light in every direction to give the object the appearance of having depth but will give off the crisp, nice effect of having light reflect off of a normal map. Parallax (made from height maps) is nice, but it can look weird when you get in too close because the map is still flat but it gives a super awesome affect of it actually looking like there's depth. Works best on stone.

Tangent space normal


Bump map


So clearly bump mapping doesn't even look good in the first place, why try to fake it? And by "faking" it, what you're doing is creating the shadows that would have been created if a bump map was there and overlaying it into the diffuse. AKA an ambient occlusion map, not bump. Which is actually part of the "next-gen" work flow. If done right ambient occlusion can strengthen your diffuse map.
Edited by PenGuin1362 on Nov 28, 2010 at 12:41 PM


Stagnant
Joined: Jul 11, 2010

-Everything (Somewhat Inactive)- UDK is beast


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 01:55 PM    Msg. 24 of 45       
I agree that normal mapping is MUCH more effective, and almost every form of fake bumping does involve adding an OCC map, but bump maps are effective when used with normal maps, and can be baked into the diffuse to create "good" results.

Every form of fake bumping is compensation, it is never intended to look as good as the real thing. However there are times when it can be applied in a somewhat useful way.


anonymous_2009
Joined: Jun 13, 2009


Posted: Nov 28, 2010 06:20 PM    Msg. 25 of 45       
Fakebump = AO

Tbh the only way I can think of "faking" a bump map is by being very clever with the spec-map. But even if you managed to get a good effect you will still only be able to get the "depth" by looking at it in one direction.


HaloIsAHorribleGane
Joined: Nov 9, 2010

I'd rather play yahtzee


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 03:50 AM    Msg. 26 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: TM_L0d3man
Quote: --- Original message by: HaloIsAHorribleGane
idk just googled bump mapping and grabbed a few pictures that popped up


Your credibility suffers from vital flaws as this. You basically admit to not knowing what you are talking about.


I'm no expert on it, and I never said I was. I do however have basic knowledge of it, telling me I don't know what I'm talking about is completely ridiculous, as my point remains valid.

to my knowledge a bumpmap is an image that alters the way light affects a flat surface on one axis. heretics in halo 2 were covered in these bumpmaps, to the point of being extremely excessive. normal maps, while similar, affects all 3 axis and can make a low poly model look much more detailed, as seen in many unreal engine games. I have never heard of parallax mapping and do not know how they work, I agree. you wanna fight about it?

the point remains that you cannot "fake" bump maps, and all of these models that have "faked" bump maps applied all look like garbage

Edited by HaloIsAHorribleGane on Nov 29, 2010 at 03:51 AM


anonymous_2009
Joined: Jun 13, 2009


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 07:58 AM    Msg. 27 of 45       
normal maps = real time.
bump maps = render only, they can't be used in real time.


HaloIsAHorribleGane
Joined: Nov 9, 2010

I'd rather play yahtzee


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 09:35 AM    Msg. 28 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: TM_L0d3man
Quote: --- Original message by: HaloIsAHorribleGane

all of these models that have "faked" bump maps applied all look like garbage

Edited by HaloIsAHorribleGane on Nov 29, 2010 at 03:51 AM


That is a matter of personal opinion. You state is as fact. Byebye.


okay, let me restate that since you're getting all agro.

fact: fake bumps don't look like legitimate bumpmaps. therefore, they do not look like what they're intended to mimick. the engine does not support it, and "faking" it does not yeild successful results

opinion: that most of them, huge excessively bold, black outlines, make the models horribly out of place and cell shaded. they look like absolute horse dook, and people need to stop trying to "fake" features that the engine doesn't support, and focus on getting what's available to look good. diffuse maps and speculars. faking features that the game engine does not support is stupid and futile, for the simplest of reasons

don't like my opinion?

Edited by HaloIsAHorribleGane on Nov 29, 2010 at 09:39 AM


anonymous_2009
Joined: Jun 13, 2009


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 12:30 PM    Msg. 29 of 45       
Fakebumps / AO looking good is a matter of fact, not opinion. Who is the right mind things they look good.

They only thing that it does is use the normal maps to make an AO as the normals have all of the additional detail information.

You would get better results modelling the highpoly and baking your own AO and then texturing it your self as you can take into consideration that its for an older engine which means you can modify the model/textures to allow for that and make it look better instead of being stupid and ripping content from a next-gen game and put it in an older engine


anonymous_2009
Joined: Jun 13, 2009


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 01:50 PM    Msg. 30 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: TM_L0d3man
"Who is the right mind" is relative to each person.
Again, you cannot "beat" my argument since it is all opinion based.

You clearly dislike the look and feel of fakebumps. I personally don't find they look bad at all.
You can NOT argue with that.

Come at me brah.


LOL, "Come at me brah". Please don't attempt to be a hard man online. I ain't even going to bother, pathetic lmao.


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 05:34 PM    Msg. 31 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: anonymous_2009
Quote: --- Original message by: TM_L0d3man
"Who is the right mind" is relative to each person.
Again, you cannot "beat" my argument since it is all opinion based.

You clearly dislike the look and feel of fakebumps. I personally don't find they look bad at all.
You can NOT argue with that.

Come at me brah.


Please don't attempt to be a hard man online. I ain't even going to bother, pathetic lmao.
Contradiction makes my head hurt.


HaloIsAHorribleGane
Joined: Nov 9, 2010

I'd rather play yahtzee


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 07:04 PM    Msg. 32 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: anonymous_2009
Fakebumps / AO looking good is a matter of fact, not opinion. Who is the right mind things they look good.


no. look at the biped's thread. everyone in there thinks their fakebumps look good. what looks good to one person does not to another. good and bad is subjective. good and bad is opinion

Quote: --- Original message by: anonymous_2009
LOL, "Come at me brah". Please don't attempt to be a hard man online. I ain't even going to bother, pathetic lmao.


I said the same thing on the last page. u got eh problem bre?

Quote: --- Original message by: TM_L0d3man
Anything aesthetic is ALWAYS based on personal taste. I win, you lose.


I just admitted that in my last post, or can you not read

also, win/lose? oh, so it's some sort of contest now? well, I'm glad you won, go ahead and frame your e-victory and put it on the wall above the fireplace for your kids to see

Edited by HaloIsAHorribleGane on Nov 29, 2010 at 07:08 PM


anonymous_2009
Joined: Jun 13, 2009


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 07:23 PM    Msg. 33 of 45       
Quote: --- Original message by: TM_L0d3man
If you had a brain you would realise the joke, your alternate account has a similar saying at the end of his/your post. It is your lack of contextual humor that is "pathetic"

Someone clearly still holds a grudge against me


lmfao, i dont have an alt account. I have one.


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 07:25 PM    Msg. 34 of 45       
Quote: I said the same thing on the last page. u got eh problem bre?
I just admitted that in my last post, or can you not read
also, win/lose? oh, so it's some sort of contest now? well, I'm glad you won, go ahead and frame your e-victory and put it on the wall above the fireplace for your kids to see
Edited by HaloIsAHorribleGane on Nov 29, 2010 at 07:08 PM
I think you have angst. How old?
Edited by SlappyThePirate on Nov 29, 2010 at 07:36 PM


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Nov 29, 2010 07:38 PM    Msg. 35 of 45       
Who's Floyd? Google shows no Floyd related to halo. Did he get banned from this site or another?

 
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