A Community discussion forum for Halo Custom Edition, Halo 2 Vista, Portal and Halo Machinima

Home  Search Register  Login Member ListRecent Posts
  
 
»Forums Index »Halo Custom Edition (Bungie/Gearbox) »Halo CE Technical / Map Design »AI multiplayer sync solution- need script

Author Topic: AI multiplayer sync solution- need script (35 messages, Page 1 of 1)
Moderators: Dennis

rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 13, 2010 07:14 PM    Msg. 1 of 35       
I noticed that sync doesn't work. But I put so much effort into my map and really want a multiplayer ai map online.

I figured if I can check when the ai , (each one) is dead, to remove them. My solution. I would place it in with my vehicle respawn. So ai will be fixed every 2 minutes.

What would be the script to check an ais health, then remove them when needed?

Also if removed, and respawn enabled, when they respawn , do they respawn glitched? anyone know from experience?

I want to make some COOP maps for the player base aswell, like the floods, but I just need info on some work arounds for ai sync. I know the ai doesnt sync, but they do shoot, and die, sometimes. i figure checking their health periodically and "garbage collecting" them, should do the trick, any help advice etc?

Kevin Neal

COOP maps will consist of pre-existing maps, but with ai driving vehicles, I've become quite successful with big battles ai, (making sure ai boards vehicles, 8+ at a time, and fights back more than normal)


rerout343
Joined: Aug 7, 2010

Targeted and Firing


Posted: Dec 13, 2010 07:28 PM    Msg. 2 of 35       
As far as I know, it is impossible to have AI online because Halo CE's game engine will NEVER sync, it doesn't matter how or when they respawn, it will never work.


guardian25
Joined: Apr 30, 2010

balance is everything


Posted: Dec 14, 2010 01:08 AM    Msg. 3 of 35       
this sounds probable but unlikely work perfectly.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 14, 2010 06:45 AM    Msg. 4 of 35       
So could some1 help me out with a script?

I wasn't saying they would sync, I'm saying you'll fight the ai, they will die, but instead of sitting still in the spot they died, they are removed. It's better than not having a working ai multiplayer map made available to play.

Also driving vehicles is technically(according to online reading) workable. The ai syncs while in a vehicle,(or appears to) which is good enough. The issue is once they die, the vehicle and them , are messed up. So by removing the ai after death, and vehicle respawns, walla we have an ai multiplayer map.

So could someone please help out with a script, (the map in theory would be fun)


MoooseGuy
Joined: Aug 10, 2008

I Approve This Message.


Posted: Dec 14, 2010 09:11 AM    Msg. 5 of 35       
For the first thing, this would only be possible if bipeds were attached singularly to encounters. In other words you would have named bipeds running ai. This would enable destroying of the biped when it dies.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 14, 2010 11:59 AM    Msg. 6 of 35       
interesting. but how easy is it to do that? I've named my vehicles a-z (yes about 26 custom additions) and had them respawn. I'd personally want to make a map with these biped ai, in vehicles fighting back and forth. Then garbage check-collect them. But maybe thats not so easy as what I've already done?

Anywho, if that cant be acheived easily I'd like to make some COOP missions like the floods . I want to make these missions for the community using the multiplayer maps.(sidewinder, bloodgulch etc) since these COOP maps dont exist or are popular.

Does anyone know how the floods was made? the map seems to not have ai problems. is it because not alot of npcs running around at one time, or some special scripting ?


Xoronatus
Joined: Dec 6, 2010

Taking a break


Posted: Dec 18, 2010 10:22 PM    Msg. 7 of 35       
one thing you could theoretically do (which would be much simpler), you could give the ai bipeds a dying effect.

For example, you could have it so that when ever an elite AI gets killed, he will explode like a plasma grenade. This would make it so that each ai would disappear after death.

just putting out ideas :P

Another thing:

I read about ai sync online right here.

http://www.modhalo.net/index.php?/topic/11834-synced-ai-in-multiplayer/

It says that that you can make AI sync by spawning AI AFTER all of the players are in. This should be able to be accomplished with a script.

That would be more convenient if you're playing with your friends.
Edited by Xoronatus on Dec 18, 2010 at 10:25 PM


Gamma927
Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Steam: gamma927


Posted: Dec 18, 2010 11:02 PM    Msg. 8 of 35       
That still won't sync AI. Even if the AI is placed AFTER the players, at most, that'll only remove duplicates. You still have the issue of AI actions not being synced.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 20, 2010 06:11 PM    Msg. 9 of 35       
So spawning ai after all players are logged in will fix the invicible ai glitch?

If done, will the ai behave more like a 56k connection, or sync not at all as in 1 player sees the hunter at blue base, player2 see's hunter at red base?

The players don't care if it's more like a 56k connection behaved ai. Floods seemed to play fine, and it's one of the few maps out for coop. So I wanted to present a few more options for the community even if it wasn't perfect/ I just don't want the above to happen, or anything serious which really makes the map not fun.

I can deal with shooting the ai 1 world units apart from where player2 sees the ai. And that would be ai on foot, as ai in vehicles syncs, or so it appears ingame. input on this?


Gamma927
Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Steam: gamma927


Posted: Dec 20, 2010 06:14 PM    Msg. 10 of 35       
It won't fix the invisible AI glitch.

The floods "seemed" to play fine, because there were always mobs of flood. Everyone just sprayed into it, and one of their shots was bound to hit something. A lot of maps "seem" to play fine, but when you actually try a sync test, you'll figure out that it's not all fun and games.
Edited by Gamma927 on Dec 20, 2010 at 06:15 PM


Polamee
Joined: Feb 25, 2008

MP2SPMT's founder


Posted: Dec 20, 2010 10:07 PM    Msg. 11 of 35       
From what I can gather, you're using the biped-killing method used to sync devices. This won't work, because devices are simple and can only have two states: on and off.

AI, on the other hand, can make an infinite number of decisions in combat and trying to sync them would be impossible. Look at the AI actor or actor variant tags in Guerilla. Many of the values are assigned by random chance, and trying to sync all of these would be monstrous and probably do more harm than good. It is safe to conclude that AI will never be able to sync. Doors can sync, bipeds can sync, but there it is impossible within the limits of our current game engine and scripting to sync AI.

The point is - AI don't sync because the variables in decisions they make don't transit over the network - that means that if you spawn an elite with one starting point, it might walk forward on one player's comp, but it would move backwards on the other player's comp. The AI on each player's game runs differently from the other because of random chance in variables that aren't transmitted.
Edited by Polamee on Dec 20, 2010 at 10:09 PM


DA_Ender
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

()R h GD


Posted: Dec 22, 2010 03:35 AM    Msg. 12 of 35       
Quote: --- Original message by: Polamee

From what I can gather, you're using the biped-killing method used to sync devices. This won't work, because devices are simple and can only have two states: on and off.

AI, on the other hand, can make an infinite number of decisions in combat and trying to sync them would be impossible. Look at the AI actor or actor variant tags in Guerilla. Many of the values are assigned by random chance, and trying to sync all of these would be monstrous and probably do more harm than good. It is safe to conclude that AI will never be able to sync. Doors can sync, bipeds can sync, but there it is impossible within the limits of our current game engine and scripting to sync AI.

The point is - AI don't sync because the variables in decisions they make don't transit over the network - that means that if you spawn an elite with one starting point, it might walk forward on one player's comp, but it would move backwards on the other player's comp. The AI on each player's game runs differently from the other because of random chance in variables that aren't transmitted.
Edited by Polamee on Dec 20, 2010 at 10:09 PM



^this.

AI syncing online is just not going to happen. Halo CE has been out for so many years now. If it were possible to do I'm sure one of the guru's back in the prime time of Halo CE would have got it working.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 22, 2010 06:20 AM    Msg. 13 of 35       
Here's an idea, if devices can sync, and obviously detect a player (doors open for you) then how about a device when detecting players afar, will attack? Fire bolts . Lets say it's completely random and aweful, so you run up to the "turret device" and it shoots randomly and kills you, what is that called?

A booby trap. Indiana jones.

Is this possible?

This would open up other doors, the obsticle course map. Can be coop if well designed, and well, anyone would love to test these trap devices.

This is the limited idea, which if succeeded, other modders may take the idea, and configure a device that targets the players exact location, maybe if possible see if player is red or blue.

We need spikes that pop out of the ground, or other trap devices, a door opens to red, not blue, red standing on door (textured as dirt) door opens, red falls through, aaaah!

I really want some sort of mimiced defense/etc in a multiplayer map.


Xoronatus
Joined: Dec 6, 2010

Taking a break


Posted: Dec 22, 2010 11:46 AM    Msg. 14 of 35       
Isn't this cool!!!!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sabz0VckCA

Yeah, some of the comments were interesting. You should check em out.


Gamma927
Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Steam: gamma927


Posted: Dec 22, 2010 02:52 PM    Msg. 15 of 35       
It doesn't work. Note that at 30 seconds, he shoots some AI, and they don't die nor react.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 22, 2010 10:31 PM    Msg. 16 of 35       
he's right. at 30 sec mark, hard to see, but he runs up to same npc 10 seconds later, evidently npc hasn't moved or anything for at least 10 sec.

;(


Dennis

Joined: Jan 27, 2005

"We are made of starstuff. ― Carl Sagan


Posted: Dec 23, 2010 02:58 PM    Msg. 17 of 35       
AI, Device Machines and animated scenery will not, and cannot sync in a multi player game in Halo Custom Edition. The game does not have the functionality to transmit or receive position or status of those objects and there is nothing outside of a third party program or re-witing the core game code you can do to make them sync. If anyone says they have they found a way to make them sync they are mistaken. End of story, period.

You may now argue amongst yourselves.


Amazingcuziam
Joined: Apr 16, 2010

Sup.


Posted: Dec 23, 2010 03:41 PM    Msg. 18 of 35       
Quote: --- Original message by: Dennis
AI, Device Machines and animated scenery will not, and cannot sync in a multi player game in Halo Custom Edition. The game does not have the functionality to transmit or receive position or status of those objects and there is nothing outside of a third party program or re-witing the core game code you can do to make them sync. If anyone says they have they found a way to make them sync they are mistaken. End of story, period.

You may now argue amongst yourselves.
Would using a third party program be legal?


Head Noob
Joined: Oct 3, 2010

This difficulty is for noobs! Mythic is for pros


Posted: Dec 23, 2010 09:10 PM    Msg. 19 of 35       
Isnt funny that halo1 is like the only game that ai dont sync. Wierd.

P.S. H2 someone is making co-op campaign apparently. So the ai do sync in h2.


Dennis

Joined: Jan 27, 2005

"We are made of starstuff. ― Carl Sagan


Posted: Dec 23, 2010 09:43 PM    Msg. 20 of 35       
Quote: --- Original message by: Head Noob
Isnt funny that halo1 is like the only game that ai dont sync. Wierd.

P.S. H2 someone is making co-op campaign apparently. So the ai do sync in h2.
No actually it isn't. AI do not sync in Halo 2 either.

The Halo 1 & 2 engines were a derivation of the Xbox Blam! game engine and as such are server centric meaning that the server controls the positioning not the clients like UT or HL. With a server centric paradigm it is much tougher to generate cheats and exploits and it also requires more bandwidth. When the game engine was developed Broadband coverage in the US was less than 5% of the nation and everything else was 56K dialup so there was not enough available bandwidth to transmit all the data required to maintain AI state or else they would have had to limit the sales of the game to those few people (less that 5% of internet users) that had Broadband.


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

TAKEDOWN IS OUT MattDratt.com


Posted: Dec 23, 2010 10:29 PM    Msg. 21 of 35       
Why must there be a thread like this every other day


Amazingcuziam
Joined: Apr 16, 2010

Sup.


Posted: Dec 23, 2010 10:41 PM    Msg. 22 of 35       
Quote: --- Original message by: MatthewDratt
Why must there be a thread like this every other day
Because people refuse to learn \ read.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 27, 2010 04:39 AM    Msg. 23 of 35       
Because people refuse to believe an ugly truth. Because of hope. Because we believe it's possible when it's not. We read, we hear, we don't listen. We see halo as a bunch of letters and numbers waiting to be released, or someone smart enough to manipulate it to our liking.

EDIT
*
Ok now your really going to think "OMG again?"

I know I know.

Here's another idea: When bullets hit an object such as the covenants field generater, (it pops). It appears to sync. Truly no objects sync in relevance to devices, or anything useful to make things fun right? Well a signal is sent to the server when that sheild pops(becuase of the syncing bullet), simulating a true sync. How about some destructive doors? How about a tied up log, shoot the rope, bullet hits, log falls with all clients, Splats the poor player. Log does not have it's own physics. It's a stationary device.

I'm going into map development and read up on this. I really think it will work if someone wants to make a such "triggered by bullet" trap device. Bullets sync. And send messages to all clients.

I'm thinking of only 2 problems:

-The new clients entering the game, will the fallen log appear in it's original state to them?
Solution: Log replenishes every 10 seconds. If you need to be a perfectionist, set log more than 10 seconds travel time from player spawns. By then its impossible, log will be reset, and all appear the same.

-The logs rope hp may not sync
Solution- Set it to 1! Or it doesnt have hp, it just triggers every 10 seconds if shot, only if shot, repetition of the log falling will not sync.

;) Common.. That's got to work. Covenant Field generaters are proof. Aren't they?

No one ever had ai in flash games, that didn't see through walls. I made that game. I understood why no-one did it, or could achieve it, they gave up.
*
Edited by rescue86k on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:04 AM
Edited by rescue86k on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:05 AM
Edited by rescue86k on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:07 AM


MoooseGuy
Joined: Aug 10, 2008

I Approve This Message.


Posted: Dec 27, 2010 05:25 AM    Msg. 24 of 35       
No, an object's state is always set to the first state to joining players. The log would still be attached to the the rope, and when they walk into the area, they will lag like crazy because they are running into the fallen log, but do not know it. This is why destructible vehicles do not work in multiplayer either.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 27, 2010 05:41 AM    Msg. 25 of 35       
No I said the solution to that was set the spawns far away (11 seconds away) the log respawns every 10 seconds. That will never happen. Nothing will look or feel funny.

I mean really, if we can make this work, then the doors will open up to other clever trap devices, who knows what is in the creative minds of developers! So is there really no problem to this? I hope so!

EDIT
*
the player is 11 seconds away, so him drivng the warthog, or walking, takes 11 seconds to get to the log. And being a perfectionist the gap can be extended, so hes 13 seconds away, the log is 7 second respawn time.

The worst that will happen is the new player sees another player die from log, and log not do anything. THIS WILL HAPPEN 1 time. And only with 13 seconds of gameplay, ouch right? Out of his next 14 minutes of slayer. And traps.
*
Edited by rescue86k on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:46 AM


MoooseGuy
Joined: Aug 10, 2008

I Approve This Message.


Posted: Dec 27, 2010 05:53 AM    Msg. 26 of 35       
It might work, but what's your point?
Edited by MoooseGuy on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:54 AM


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Dec 27, 2010 06:34 AM    Msg. 27 of 35       
Make a map and a request for this object. Design the map for some amazing traps. I can't remember who it was but they said they will make scenery objects upon request.

I don't have any designs layed out yet, need to wait and see if anyone else see's a problem with this first. If not, well, would you like to shoot a button on the wall that opens a scorpion sized hatch leading to spikes? Shoot a button and a bridge opens up so you can cross, yet it reclines so you better hurry? There is so much this would add to multiplayer. I hope this is a solution.


BlueGrunt 177
Joined: Dec 17, 2010

Grunt voice acting; story lines; textures...


Posted: Jan 1, 2011 02:55 PM    Msg. 28 of 35       
You could try to rewrite the net illegaly.


Gamma927
Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Steam: gamma927


Posted: Jan 1, 2011 11:21 PM    Msg. 29 of 35       
Either way, we can't do it without the source code.


Xoronatus
Joined: Dec 6, 2010

Taking a break


Posted: Jan 20, 2011 01:37 AM    Msg. 30 of 35       
Perhpaps if you only had like 2 ai in the map, then it would probably sync a little bit better.


rerout343
Joined: Aug 7, 2010

Targeted and Firing


Posted: Jan 20, 2011 01:58 AM    Msg. 31 of 35       
Quote: --- Original message by: Xoronatus
Perhpaps if you only had like 2 ai in the map, then it would probably sync a little bit better.


No, having fewer AI will not allow them to sync, AI will never sync.(Without modifying the netcode)


Pepzee
Joined: Sep 9, 2010


Posted: Jan 21, 2011 09:25 PM    Msg. 32 of 35       
'Sync' is a commonly used abbreviation for 'synchronize,' which means to have two or more things in harmony with each other; to agree on a time; at the same time. For example, two people may synchronize their watches by matching the times on each watch exactly. It is commonly used in technology to refer to the matching of data between two devices.

So, if AI sync, both computers are seeing the same thing at the same time. Hence both computers would see the AI movement at the same time.

But the reality is that they don't sync, which means. Both computers are NOT seeing the same thing at the same time. So on one computer an AI might be running across the battlefield, on the other computer the AI would just be standing there, doing nothing.

============================================================

Halo 2 is in the same realm of Halo:CE, in short AI do not sync. Even though Halo 2 is newer AI will still not sync.

============================================================

Now onto the final thing, the netcode. Back in 2003, when Halo:CE came out, not everyone had the required type of internet connection, to send the mass amount of data to make AI sync with each computer. As Dennis said only about 5% of the population would have been able to send the amount of data halo would of required to make AI sync.


rescue86k
Joined: Dec 13, 2010

Frog blast the vent core! -Marathon IS Halo


Posted: Feb 7, 2011 07:53 PM    Msg. 33 of 35       
It's entertaining how long this thread has been rambling on for. Ai sync cannot happen. However the idea I suggested will work; in theory.

The purpose of this idea is to make a device activate on all computers at the same time. To do this, I would tell the device to activate when struck by a projectile. The device must be reset to it's default sooner than a player can start the game, run to it, and see it visibly. This means the device can't be destroyed, which would cause problems with new players joining the game.

For example imagine a loopy maze like map. Somewhere in the middle is a bridge device. It recedes when struck by any projectile, taking 10 seconds to do so. The bridge slowly extends back to it's original form, costing 10 more seconds. A player joins the game right after the bridge is hit by a grenade. This player's computer will recognize the bridge in it's default mode, extending across the lake when it's suppose to be activating. This player spends 30 seconds walking to the location. Textured walls block his view during this time. By the time he gets there, the bridge is back to it's default.

With all other players who have been in the game at this location, the bridge activates on each of their computers from the grenade. They watch Freddy fall to his death. Poor Freddy.
Edited by rescue86k on Feb 7, 2011 at 08:00 PM


Xoronatus
Joined: Dec 6, 2010

Taking a break


Posted: Feb 7, 2011 08:18 PM    Msg. 34 of 35       
Quote: --- Original message by: pepzee
'Sync' is a commonly used abbreviation for 'synchronize,' which means to have two or more things in harmony with each other; to agree on a time; at the same time. For example, two people may synchronize their watches by matching the times on each watch exactly. It is commonly used in technology to refer to the matching of data between two devices.

So, if AI sync, both computers are seeing the same thing at the same time. Hence both computers would see the AI movement at the same time.

But the reality is that they don't sync, which means. Both computers are NOT seeing the same thing at the same time. So on one computer an AI might be running across the battlefield, on the other computer the AI would just be standing there, doing nothing.

============================================================

Halo 2 is in the same realm of Halo:CE, in short AI do not sync. Even though Halo 2 is newer AI will still not sync.

============================================================

Now onto the final thing, the netcode. Back in 2003, when Halo:CE came out, not everyone had the required type of internet connection, to send the mass amount of data to make AI sync with each computer. As Dennis said only about 5% of the population would have been able to send the amount of data halo would of required to make AI sync.



So but if there were fewer AI, and you played on LAN, then the AI would sync pretty well right?


rerout343
Joined: Aug 7, 2010

Targeted and Firing


Posted: Feb 8, 2011 08:11 AM    Msg. 35 of 35       
Quote: --- Original message by: Xoronatus
Quote: --- Original message by: pepzee
'Sync' is a commonly used abbreviation for 'synchronize,' which means to have two or more things in harmony with each other; to agree on a time; at the same time. For example, two people may synchronize their watches by matching the times on each watch exactly. It is commonly used in technology to refer to the matching of data between two devices.

So, if AI sync, both computers are seeing the same thing at the same time. Hence both computers would see the AI movement at the same time.

But the reality is that they don't sync, which means. Both computers are NOT seeing the same thing at the same time. So on one computer an AI might be running across the battlefield, on the other computer the AI would just be standing there, doing nothing.

============================================================

Halo 2 is in the same realm of Halo:CE, in short AI do not sync. Even though Halo 2 is newer AI will still not sync.

============================================================

Now onto the final thing, the netcode. Back in 2003, when Halo:CE came out, not everyone had the required type of internet connection, to send the mass amount of data to make AI sync with each computer. As Dennis said only about 5% of the population would have been able to send the amount of data halo would of required to make AI sync.



So but if there were fewer AI, and you played on LAN, then the AI would sync pretty well right?


No not at all. Actually I believe I answered this before:
Quote: --- Original message by: rerout343
Quote: --- Original message by: Xoronatus
Perhpaps if you only had like 2 ai in the map, then it would probably sync a little bit better.


No, having fewer AI will not allow them to sync, AI will never sync.(Without modifying the netcode)


The problem is that AI behave randomly and will never behave the same way on two pcs at once.

It's like having two hats with numbers in them ranging from 1 to 1,000, now what are the odds that you will pull the same number from both hats hundreds of times in a row? That is why the AI cannot sync, they will never behave the same way every time, it is completely random..
Edited by rerout343 on Feb 8, 2011 at 08:12 AM

 

 
Previous Older Thread    Next newer Thread







Time: Sun July 12, 2020 6:00 PM 250 ms.
A Halo Maps Website