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Author Topic: Halo Editing Kit AIO - C# Developers Needed (439 messages, Page 1 of 13)
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ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 02:29 AM    Msg. 1 of 439       
Until we decide what this is going to be I'm not going to get into huge detail of what this is, what it will do, and how it will do it. I am in need of developers that wish to spend some time working on a HEK AIO project. This will be much like what Prometheus promised, but never ended up getting released. The basic functionality of the app is already in place but to build it to the next level some hard research and development needs to take place. This project is in the beginning stages and is currently being rewritten from the ground up. We are working on a white paper with what we plan on putting into the application and our goals and deadlines. Once we have a solid team ready to go with accounts setup on my version control server and have a todo for each of the developers there will not be any more development taking place.

If you are interested please contact me via email or one of the methods below:

XFIRE: e3pobot
AIM: helixservers
MSN: E3pO@wmclan.net

Current Team Members:
E3pO - Project Lead
SiLentK - Lead Programmer
Deelekgolo -INACTIVE
Dwood -INACTIVE
Kiwidoggie -INACTIVE
Conure -INACTIVE
Chaos -INACTIVE
Oxide -INACTIVE


Some features may include:
Real time editing of tags on multiple clients. This will allow for multiple team members to be in the same editing environment at the same time and be able to get work done much faster. Joe Blow can be working on getting a shader to look correct while John is working on adding vehicles and scenery to the map. These edits will be in real time and sync across multiple machines across the world. All changes can be logged and have a digital signature with version control.

Everything is done inside of the AIO app. There will be a custom 3ds max export plugin that will allow you to export into our custom format. When you make a new project inside of the AIO app it will ask for a max project to import or start from an existing project map file. When you select the max option it will automatically generate the needed shaders and compile the textures you have assigned inside of 3ds max. It will optimize your 3d mesh to use the least amount of polygons as possible without ruing your mesh. It would be the difference of trying to listen to a high bitrate .wav file and a high bitrate .mp3..

Real Lightmaps. Because we won't be using tool at all for converting data into tags we will have full control over what is being generated. This will allow for fully custom UVW lightmaps with the options of different rendering methods. Ambient Occlusion, Real Radiocity, ratGPU, etc.

Drag N Drop anything into the app. Do you have a .vehicle tag you want to add into the map? All you need to do is drag n drop it in and it will add it automatically to the scenario and have the vehicle waiting at your cursor to be clicked and placed. Lets say you want to put in a different sky? All you need to do is drag n drop a sky tag or right click and "Use Sky" to activate it. You will have the option to then regenerate lightmaps if you wish.

Realtime BSP Edits. Because we strive for everything to be in real time you will be able to change minor things about bsps. Lets say you have a face that just doesn't look right in game but looked fine inside of 3ds max. You can manipulate it easily inside of the editor. Editing terrain or hills will be easy with different brush sizes to smooth hills or make mountains. This goes for UVW maps as well and other painting fun.

Paint Brush madness. There will be multiple different brushes and tools to manipulate the bsp and the textures\lightmaps. Lets say you don't want to open back up photoshop to add a vehicle trail. Select the paintbrush tool and choose your favorite trail type and paint away. This will also allow for edits in lightmaps.

Moving objects in the editor is easier then ever. Changing the rotation on objects and moving them around is super simple to do and can be snapped to different grid systems. This will make aligning up objects really easy!


And much more....

If you are not a programmer and would like to give ideas feel free to leave a comment.


If someone wouldn't mind posting the image linked below as I am not able to display images for another 3 days. Thank you





Edited by ethreepoh on Nov 21, 2011 at 03:33 PM


Dwood
Joined: Oct 23, 2007

Judge Ye Therefore


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 03:11 AM    Msg. 2 of 439       
Open GL or DirectX? And no i'm only morerately interested in helping, even though I probably could help a lot. I've got my own stuff right now to work on, but it _looks_ neat.

Also, if you're using BlamLib you need to release your program as Open Source.

Edit x2 just use a compressed .jms format tbh that format works just fine.
Edited by Dwood on Mar 3, 2011 at 03:14 AM


agtq13
Joined: Mar 29, 2010

o_e" face


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 03:40 AM    Msg. 3 of 439       
Uhm, maybe, u can add a loading screen on the program, like sapien, take a time to load, and i think, this will take a bit or a long time more, idk, but, i think, its a good idea put it like 3d max.

example:

Loading: tags\weapons\assault rifle\shaders\diffuse.shader_model
loading: tags\weapons\assault rifle\shaders\numbers.shader_model

or something like it...


cyboryxmen
Joined: Nov 7, 2010

--CG artist-- New mission. Refuse this Mission!


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 05:06 AM    Msg. 4 of 439       
Modacity is the more recommended forum for this as they are the 'create new tools for map making' kind and this forum is the 'use those tools to make maps' forum. Anyway, I have studied the C language so I could help you in the user interface. Can't do much for the rest though.
-Zekilk


DEEhunter
Joined: Dec 16, 2006


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 09:34 AM    Msg. 5 of 439       
I'm sure data is streamed rather than just filled into memory at initialization. This allows for assets to be loaded into the game in real-time.

Edited by DEEhunter on Mar 3, 2011 at 09:36 AM


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 01:46 PM    Msg. 6 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: agtq13
Uhm, maybe, u can add a loading screen on the program, like sapien, take a time to load, and i think, this will take a bit or a long time more, idk, but, i think, its a good idea put it like 3d max.

example:

Loading: tags\weapons\assault rifle\shaders\diffuse.shader_model
loading: tags\weapons\assault rifle\shaders\numbers.shader_model

or something like it...


Loading times will not be as long as sapien at all. There is no reason for it to be any longer then a few seconds to load an entire map into the editor once our code is optimized. Loading screen will be implemented eventually and has been added to the whitelist.


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 05:19 PM    Msg. 7 of 439       
My comment: An amazing concept, and I really hope this goes though.


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 06:16 PM    Msg. 8 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: JohnWalker
The things you want to do are astronomical in scale. That alone should serve as a prediction of success. Lack of people who know a darn thing about scripting only makes things worse.

Astronomical in scale? The things i have listed above are fairly simple concepts that with the right people shouldn't take long at all to code. With this program scripting is easier then ever and will be able to work with python or an even more dumbed down language. The IDE with error support and code snippets already available will make scripting easier then ever.

Quote:
First off, combining a bunch of apps into one isn't a walk in the park.

Well, not necessarily. Once you have the code needed for manipulating tags and the structures built having the multiple tools is fairly simple. The Tag Editor and Visual Editor is really one thing. The individual tag editor will allow for a guerilla style of editing tags and when inside of the visual editor it is more specific to what you have selected in the viewport.

Quote:
The complexity of these programs only adds to the doubt. If you're combining 3DS Max with HEK, Autodesk may want a word with you. If you're going the "it's similar but not the same" route, then it won't be any better than GMAX. (Which is HORRIBLE.) Have you even considered people prefer to use their own programs? What about custom bitmaps? I'm not using anything other than my precious Photoshop. Don't even bring up sound creation/modification. AIO data creation isn't going to work well, if at all. Limit the AIO to tags, not data. (Which pretty much eliminates the purpose of even doing this at all.)

I don't think you understand when i said, "You will be able to change minor things about bsps." I wasn't meaning creating your entire map inside of the editor. If you have one face that is out of place or need to scale the map down you will no longer need to open up 3ds max to do this saving hours of tweaking and development for some people. I understand you do not want to use something other then your precious photoshop to make your bitmap edits but the ability to make real time ground edits and seeing how it is being effected by the shaders is unlike anything you could do before and is also a development time saver.

Quote:
Secondly, "realtime" would mean automatic detection and correction of any and all errors. Can you even begin to comprehend exactly how many kinds of errors that could be created during this process? Bungie probably did, so they split HEK up like so, and they're professionals.

Realtime protocols have already been created for other programs and for other types of projects. They have been proven successful in many work environments as well. All clients will connect to a centralized server or a person that is hosting an editing session. Their edits such as adding vehicles and manipulating scenery can easily be sent to a client connected to their editor. Just like you can drive a warthog inside of halo and it syncs on all the other clients.........

Quote:
You can try as hard as you want, but this will never be perfectly realtime. If anything, you'll have shaved off a few mins of dev time. This would mostly appeal to people who have no freaking clue what their doing, sooo.............

If you take into count just how much you will be able to do with this new system and put it to good use shaving off a few minutes of dev time is a understatement. You can have every single person on your team working on a map at the same exact time. That means everybody has the same tags, the same visual editing, everything in realtime. I'm willing to bet that will save a lot more then a few minutes.

Quote:
Make tutorials that show them how. Not apps that do it for them.

Every single feature will have a video and text tutorial backing it up. There will be a database of questions the people have already asked and what we think people will think to ask.

Quote:
tl;dr: Project scope changed from realtime AIO HEK to just realtime HEK.

It's really not that long.


General Shepherd
Joined: Feb 15, 2011


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 07:46 PM    Msg. 9 of 439       
I'm guessing you would have a host or dedicated server distribute the tagsets to individual clients. May take a while, but for the benefits I'd guess it'll be worth it.



In all seriousness, I'd be impressed if you succeed in this. Not much of an expert in C# though, sorry.


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 07:54 PM    Msg. 10 of 439       
I'm no programmer, but at the moment this really dosen't sound like anything revolutionary, just something helping noobs who have no idea what the hell their doing.

I'll be impressed when I see the shader code cracked like Dee had told me at one point, or an actual update to the oh-so outdated yet still very fun engine.


General Shepherd
Joined: Feb 15, 2011


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 08:12 PM    Msg. 11 of 439       
Helping teams and such, I see no issue. I've used the HEK for some time now and I think it'll be helpful, lighten up.


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Mar 3, 2011 09:41 PM    Msg. 12 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: General Shepherd
Helping teams and such, I see no issue. I've used the HEK for some time now and I think it'll be helpful, lighten up.


I never said it was bad...? I practically did say it was useful for newer people.


agtq13
Joined: Mar 29, 2010

o_e" face


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 12:08 AM    Msg. 13 of 439       
well, this idk if u can do, but it could me awensome, add some things to the .shader_models and other things, like support "bumps" and "double detail" or something, that could be awensome for some persons, or add grenade slots on globals, to put 3 or 4 :/ or expansibility on tag space or more vehicle slots, they're just ideas, idk if u can do this, im not saying this to get insult comments, just few ideas, that i see as cool :/


AGLion
Joined: Jun 29, 2010

- Animator... suck it -


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 12:11 AM    Msg. 14 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: JohnWalker
I see. How would that multiple people working on the same scenario thing work? I'm not sure it would work very well considering how large tags and tagsets get/are. Do you have a solution?


Even if they do manage to make that work, there is going to be HUGE, HUGE, HUGE latency between the server and client unless they develop some sort of network 'engine' to manage and simplify all the data going in and out.

And I'm surprised they're trying to do this in C#. C++ has OpenGL and DirectX for 3D rendering and it would be quite worthwhile to learn.

E: NVM. C# has things like XNA and WPF that support 3D. It might require a little haxing though.
Edited by AGLion on Mar 4, 2011 at 12:13 AM


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 07:16 AM    Msg. 15 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: AGLion

Quote: --- Original message by: JohnWalker
I see. How would that multiple people working on the same scenario thing work? I'm not sure it would work very well considering how large tags and tagsets get/are. Do you have a solution?


Even if they do manage to make that work, there is going to be HUGE, HUGE, HUGE latency between the server and client unless they develop some sort of network 'engine' to manage and simplify all the data going in and out.

And I'm surprised they're trying to do this in C#. C++ has OpenGL and DirectX for 3D rendering and it would be quite worthwhile to learn.

E: NVM. C# has things like XNA and WPF that support 3D. It might require a little haxing though.
Edited by AGLion on Mar 4, 2011 at 12:13 AM


There are already protocols for realtime shared editing. Unless the person hosting the server is on dialup connection there really shouldn't be any problems. The way that it will work is data will be sent and then main applications will receive other changes and update as needed. A portion of the map file will be glowing in a color with a persons name almost like monitor in halo with headlights to show that someone is editing that area. If more then one person is working on the exact same face at the same time it may cause problems, but nothing extraordinarily bad. We will probably lock editing to a 10x10 square of any region someone else is already editing just to solve some issues that may come up.

Realtime team editing doesn't have to be implemented really... if no one team member edits the same part of the map then they could send a .edits file to whoever is owning the master tag set or version control and have it update the bsp with all their changes. If that makes sense at all to you..

You don't have to program everything in C# if your making the project in C#. You can call unmanaged code and even asm in C#.


DarkLord0912
Joined: Jan 17, 2009

Works on bigger and better things


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 07:17 AM    Msg. 16 of 439       
Been using C++/C# for awhile now.I still don't see this happening,if people want to modify this game engine so bad why not do like me and get a decent open source 3D engine and modify it to your will.

Alot of people don't understand what kind of work is required.

I personally think it's not worth it when you can do what I mentioned above^^




Is this what this project is changing halo ce engine or shaders or have the last few post's confused me??


IcePhoenix
Joined: Sep 9, 2010

-Minor modeler-


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 07:25 AM    Msg. 17 of 439       
I'll just assume it gets canceled after a few weeks of "progress".


cyboryxmen
Joined: Nov 7, 2010

--CG artist-- New mission. Refuse this Mission!


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 08:49 AM    Msg. 18 of 439       
Sent you a PM on Xfire. Now waiting for a response.

Quote: --- Original message by: DarkLord0912
Is this what this project is changing halo ce engine or shaders or have the last few post's confused me??


I was also confused at first. Let me give you a briefer summary of the app's features.

1)It can edit tags in your map(duh).

2)You can move/rotate/resize stuff in your map.

3)Multiple users can edit the same map in real time.

4)You can import all of your models from a 3Dsmax file into the app and have it automatically reduced to a low poly in the same condition.

5)You are given more options of lighting your map so that you can make it look more awesome(without actually changing the game engine).

6)The ability to Drag and Drop tags into the map.

7)Edit and colour BSPs

...and much much more(just kidding. There are no more features other than these. He just said that to make the project sound worthwhile)
-Zekilk
Edited by cyboryxmen on Mar 4, 2011 at 11:17 AM


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 09:46 AM    Msg. 19 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: DarkLord0912
Been using C++/C# for awhile now.I still don't see this happening,if people want to modify this game engine so bad why not do like me and get a decent open source 3D engine and modify it to your will.


I don't see anywhere where i said that it will be modifying the existing engine in any way. It is not going to just be all the apps put into one application. It's going to be new code that does the same as the apps, and more. We will be using a decent open source 3d engine to display the bsp and such within the editor.

Quote: --- Original message by: cyboryxmen
...and much much more(just kidding. There are no more features other than these. He just said that to make the project sound worthwhile)


Actually, there is many more features we have thought up and plan to implement. They are all in a white paper that we are working on. When i made the OP I picked through some of the first features in the list that have been thought up and typed a new summary of them for people to hopefully better understand.


Edited by ethreepoh on Mar 4, 2011 at 09:50 AM


Sprinkle
Joined: Jan 3, 2010


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 10:45 AM    Msg. 20 of 439       
A video of what it currently does would be preferred rather than some sketchy picture.


cyboryxmen
Joined: Nov 7, 2010

--CG artist-- New mission. Refuse this Mission!


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 11:22 AM    Msg. 21 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: Sprinkle
A video of what it currently does would be preferred rather than some sketchy picture.


No vids for now but I think everyone here wants to know how the app works. So does it edit the .map files or their scenario tags? If it does edit the .map files, how are you going to bypass the checksum?
-Zekilk
Edited by cyboryxmen on Mar 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM


SeL
Joined: Dec 15, 2010

https://twitter.com/FalldogStudio


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 12:02 PM    Msg. 22 of 439       
hey e3po how you been baby

cool hek btw!
Edited by SeL on Mar 4, 2011 at 12:02 PM


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 12:13 PM    Msg. 23 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: Sprinkle
A video of what it currently does would be preferred rather than some sketchy picture.

What it does currently is being completely rewritten and the user interface is going to be laid out differently. The sketchy picture was a project i was working with hacked code to just make it work. This is why it needs to be rewritten and rethought through. As i said this project is only in its beginning stages and will not start any more development until a team is put in place.

Quote: --- Original message by: cyboryxmen
So does it edit the .map files or their scenario tags? If it does edit the .map files, how are you going to bypass the checksum?
-Zekilk
Edited by cyboryxmen on Mar 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM


Directly from my thought paper:

"Fully supported .map files. Open up a .map and have the ability to edit it just like you would if opening a .scenario file."

This means .scenario files will be editable just like you normally would and also .map files as if it was a not yet compiled project.


AGLion
Joined: Jun 29, 2010

- Animator... suck it -


Posted: Mar 4, 2011 04:32 PM    Msg. 24 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: ethreepoh
There are already protocols for realtime shared editing. Unless the person hosting the server is on dialup connection there really shouldn't be any problems. The way that it will work is data will be sent and then main applications will receive other changes and update as needed.


Would a client be viewing what tags are available in the server, and placing from that specific tagset? Because if a client doesn't have the same tags as the server, you'd have unhandled exceptions and everybody's going to be pissed. Are those protocols 3rd party, or your own creation?

And please, please, please, debug and fix errors so that people don't throw mice at their monitors every time their server crashes because of a neglected error error. Key word here is: ERROR HANDLING.


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 5, 2011 11:59 PM    Msg. 25 of 439       
Glad to welcome Dwood, SilentK, and Kiwidoggie to the project.


Also we where talking about this project in a chat room and i decided to record what i was talking about... If your interested here is the recording.

http://bd.wmclan.net:41/hekaio/ABOUTHEKAIO.mp3
Edited by ethreepoh on Mar 5, 2011 at 11:59 PM


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

HaloCE3.com MattDratt.com


Posted: Mar 6, 2011 12:47 AM    Msg. 26 of 439       
koolio


agtq13
Joined: Mar 29, 2010

o_e" face


Posted: Mar 6, 2011 12:39 PM    Msg. 27 of 439       
I have another idea, i think, this will be so helpfull for all multiplayer developers, can see and rotate items_collections, itīs a bit hardy position it when u canīt see that D:


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 6, 2011 02:41 PM    Msg. 28 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: agtq13
I have another idea, i think, this will be so helpfull for all multiplayer developers, can see and rotate items_collections, itīs a bit hardy position it when u canīt see that D:


It has been added to the whitelist, thanks for your input. Anybody else that has ideas for features we will try to get them in.

We would like to welcome the latest member of the team, Grimdoomer.

Good friend Pepsi has also began working on a theme for the website we will be using to display updates and progress screenshots. It will also be a good place to contact us if you have questions etc.


DarkHalo003
Joined: Mar 10, 2008

All ARs Need Green Little Buttons.


Posted: Mar 6, 2011 09:06 PM    Msg. 29 of 439       
Make the compiler ERROR smart so that it either tells you where/what the ERROR is or automatically fixes the ERROR (if it's a Red Triangle).


ethreepoh
Joined: Mar 2, 2011


Posted: Mar 6, 2011 10:42 PM    Msg. 30 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: Carter 151
Hmmm a updated hek? Seems worthwhile to me.
What next though? Will it compile your maps too?

Yes it will eventually be able to compile your maps too.


Quote: --- Original message by: DarkHalo003
Make the compiler ERROR smart so that it either tells you where/what the ERROR is or automatically fixes the ERROR (if it's a Red Triangle).

It will be able to find errors and help you correct them.


Welcome to the team Conure and Chaos.


agtq13
Joined: Mar 29, 2010

o_e" face


Posted: Mar 6, 2011 11:45 PM    Msg. 31 of 439       
what about the design? if the program will be so good like i see, it should have a good design, of theme, i mean, u can do ur own theme, like photoshop, it have it theme, i can design it if u want, maybe a good idea can be, make theme for slow pc, like windows 2000 theme...to make fast the work :)


Dwood
Joined: Oct 23, 2007

Judge Ye Therefore


Posted: Mar 7, 2011 03:09 AM    Msg. 32 of 439       
We already have a design in mind right now but of course we can change it pretty easily.


cyboryxmen
Joined: Nov 7, 2010

--CG artist-- New mission. Refuse this Mission!


Posted: Mar 7, 2011 05:04 AM    Msg. 33 of 439       
I guess I'm not legible to be part of the team. Ahh well, at least now i have time for projects other than halo.
-Zekilk


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Mar 7, 2011 07:07 PM    Msg. 34 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: 2L8
Whatever the design is, keep the GUI simple and easy to figure out.
Yes. Don't overboard on new gooooey, or do anything crazy like the HEK+ has. It doesn't work on all computers because of some stuff, while sapien and guerilla do because they use a compatible layout.


Dwood
Joined: Oct 23, 2007

Judge Ye Therefore


Posted: Mar 7, 2011 08:04 PM    Msg. 35 of 439       
Quote: --- Original message by: SlappyThePirate
Quote: --- Original message by: 2L8
Whatever the design is, keep the GUI simple and easy to figure out.
Yes. Don't overboard on new gooooey, or do anything crazy like the HEK+ has. It doesn't work on all computers because of some stuff, while sapien and guerilla do because they use a compatible layout.


Disable themes and desktop composition, as well as make it always run as administrator and it runs just fine.

 
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