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Author Topic: I think i mite have thought of a way to make "AI" sync online... (120 messages, Page 1 of 4)
Moderators: Dennis

grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 10:14 AM    Msg. 1 of 120       
Well. Not "AI" per say. They don't use Actor/Actor_Variants. But it will look like AI and fight you.


So since i have no clue how to even start this project i'm asking for help. Since vehicles sync online, and don't think i'm making the AI get into vehicles, could one make a vehicle using the biped model/animations. Make a vehicle and make it's sliding animations that of the biped running. Now in your map make some spawns for these vehicles, Name the vehicles. Something like enemy1 enemy2 ect, and make some netgame flags named enemy-one-move1 enemy-one-move2 ect. And make a script that makes it so the vehicles will be shoved to these points, or something along those lines.


Now make...Well. A ton of trigger volumes and a script that takes control of the vehicles gun and uses it. if you enter one of these trigger volumes than the script says to point the gun at you and shoot, also make the projectile that the "vehicle' uses a bit more heat seeking. But not too much.

The only problem i see is the fact that the vehicles would have to be destructible. Witch is a bit unsynced online... Anyone up for helping me with this?


Volteer55
Joined: Jul 11, 2010


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 11:16 AM    Msg. 2 of 120       
theres a way with HMT (i think) that can directly change the Biped into a vehicle, making them sync online after the map has been compiled, less common but as far as i know, it works


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 11:54 AM    Msg. 3 of 120       
You don't know what you're talking about. As a script/AI specialist, I honestly almost cried while reading that. Please refrain from posting similarly in the future.


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 01:33 PM    Msg. 4 of 120       
I know AI device machines and so on don't sync. What i was asking was if it is possible to make a vehicle, out of the bipeds model and animations, with no seats that is shoved around and looks like its running. And a script that takes control of the vehicles weapon and shoots at trigger volumes when a player enters them. It's not AI like it has been done in the past. But since vehicles sync if you can make it so there pushed around and have the constant animation of running, I think it will look like there AI thats moving around and shooting. As i said the only problem i see is the fact that the vehicle would have to be destructible witch wont sync


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 01:41 PM    Msg. 5 of 120       
Because his picture. Character quote. And name are close to the same. Now is what i'm saying possible or do you still think i sound foolish


Dwood
Joined: Oct 23, 2007

Judge Ye Therefore


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 01:50 PM    Msg. 6 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
Because his picture. Character quote. And name are close to the same. Now is what i'm saying possible or do you still think i sound foolish

.


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:04 PM    Msg. 7 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
Now is what i'm saying possible or do you still think i sound foolish

Apparently what I said before wasn't straightforward enough for your liking, so allow me to be more to the point - What you're suggesting is not possible, would not sync even if it did work, and overall it is absolutely ridiculous to consider that it might be feasible.


Quote: And make a script that makes it so the vehicles will be shoved to these points, or something along those lines.

And how would you suggest having them move to those points? Teleporting? That's the only way it would happen without AI.


Quote: a script that takes control of the vehicles gun and uses it. if you enter one of these trigger volumes than the script says to point the gun at you and shoot

L O L. Do you know how scripts take control of guns? That's right - AI! Unless you want to 1. manually teleport the vehicle to be facing the player and then 2. manually cause firing effects of an assault rifle or what have you at the gun's node, in which case you'd end up with more scripts than any of this was worth in the first place, not to mention something that is totally unplayable, unrealistic, and un-fun.
Edited by The Cereal Killer on Apr 29, 2011 at 02:09 PM


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:06 PM    Msg. 8 of 120       
Sigh. I suppose i'll brake it down than. First off. Do you understand what i mean by taking the model. collision geometry. and animation of the biped and making them into a vehicle?


Bobblehob
Joined: Aug 29, 2010


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:37 PM    Msg. 9 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
Sigh. I suppose i'll brake it down than. First off. Do you understand what i mean by taking the model. collision geometry. and animation of the biped and making them into a vehicle?


You really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Also, where are your maps with your assassination animations and such that you were working on eh? You said that they would be done really soon...

I am waiting in eager anticipation for your masterful work, please don't keep me and the rest of the community waiting...
Edited by Bobblehob on Apr 29, 2011 at 02:40 PM
Edited by Bobblehob on Apr 29, 2011 at 02:41 PM


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:40 PM    Msg. 10 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
Sigh. I suppose i'll brake it down than. First off. Do you understand what i mean by taking the model. collision geometry. and animation of the biped and making them into a vehicle?


We understand what you're saying, but by all means explain yourself if you feel the need.


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:40 PM    Msg. 11 of 120       
No. No driving. The "vehicle" tag will actually be a biped. I can't really think of a way to explain this. So go into guerilla and open a vehicle tag. You'll see model. Animation graph. Collision-geometry. And physics. If you were to replace the model. Animations. And collision geometry with that of a bipeds you'll have a Biped-vehicle. Now if you take out the seats no one can get into it. And if you open the animation tag and edit it around a bit So the "Slide" animation thats in there is that of the biped running it looks like he's moving. I'm already on all of this.


And what i meant by entering a trigger volume was that it will attach an effect that also spawns a projectile on the right hand marker of the "biped-vehicle" That does a bit of forward force and is heat seeking but does a bit less damage than normal. Then it would be like the "AI" is firing.


As for the "pushing around" i think i could make an animation for each one that looks like it's running around and make that it's idle animation. If i do that it should look right. It would be like in 343-guilty_spark. Where master chief opens the door and catches the guy and moves inside and so on. But i don't know if animated vehicles are like animated scenery and will or won't sync.


Let me know if i still don't make sense and i'll try to clarify.


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:46 PM    Msg. 12 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
I know AI device machines and so on don't sync. What i was asking was if it is possible to make a vehicle, out of the bipeds model and animations, with no seats that is shoved around and looks like its running. And a script that takes control of the vehicles weapon and shoots at trigger volumes when a player enters them. It's not AI like it has been done in the past. But since vehicles sync if you can make it so there pushed around and have the constant animation of running, I think it will look like there AI thats moving around and shooting. As i said the only problem i see is the fact that the vehicle would have to be destructible witch wont sync


Just becuase vehicles sync dosent mean it will magically make bipeds sync. Heres the catch: AI act on random impulses according to what is happening and their firing positions, which isn't transferred through the connection. All your basically doing is taking a biped and attaching an AI to it, which is basically the same thing as any other AI on the screen...


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:46 PM    Msg. 13 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
Let me know if i still don't make sense and i'll try to clarify.

You still don't make sense; but don't bother trying to explain further, it's not due to a lack of clarity (I understood what you were trying to say the first time), it's due to a lack of knowledge about the areas you are trying to talk about.


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 02:58 PM    Msg. 14 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: Higuy
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
I know AI device machines and so on don't sync. What i was asking was if it is possible to make a vehicle, out of the bipeds model and animations, with no seats that is shoved around and looks like its running. And a script that takes control of the vehicles weapon and shoots at trigger volumes when a player enters them. It's not AI like it has been done in the past. But since vehicles sync if you can make it so there pushed around and have the constant animation of running, I think it will look like there AI thats moving around and shooting. As i said the only problem i see is the fact that the vehicle would have to be destructible witch wont sync


Just becuase vehicles sync dosent mean it will magically make bipeds sync. Heres the catch: AI act on random impulses according to what is happening and their firing positions, which isn't transferred through the connection. All your basically doing is taking a biped and attaching an AI to it, which is basically the same thing as any other AI on the screen...


Lol. No. There is no biped. AI. Actor_Variants Or any other thing involved. It is nothing But a vehicle. No attaching an AI to it. Nothing like that. It is no more than a vehicle that has the model and animations of a biped. It only looks like a biped. But it is not. It is a vehicle!!!!. Do you get it now?...

It is a vehicle. You animate it to look like it's moving around like a biped. And you make a script that says if you enter a trigger volume it attaches an effect to the right hand marker on the vehicle that spawns a projectile that has vary little force on it so it moves like a plasma bolt and is heat seeking so it tracks you and only does half of the damage of a normal one so it isn't so hard that it's no fun to play with.


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

Meet Bullet & I. Halo: OD in Chicago 8/2-8/4


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 03:06 PM    Msg. 15 of 120       
Whats with everyone thinking that they can get AI to sync this week?


Switchblade
Joined: Jul 3, 2007

"Do you believe my threat is ended with my death?"


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 03:10 PM    Msg. 16 of 120       
Ok... aside from all the "ai dont sync this and that" there is a flaw with your plan. Seeing as for ever vehicle you edit has a different node for gun location/ fire effect/ etc you'd run into the problem with where the bullets are coming from. For example, if you did everything you said with the tag replacements and managed to compile them and place them ingame you'd have fire effects coming from the tops of the vehicle-bipeds' heads in various forms like tank shells or anti armor 50 cal shells with their various contrails as well. If you adjusted these and were able to script the biped-vehicles to not only fire at one of thousands of triggers but run at them as well; then yes i suppose you'd have a very convincing AI-like puppet(right up until someone shoots at it and tips it over or makes it explode like the ghosts do in SP).


Dennis

Joined: Jan 27, 2005

"We are made of starstuff. ― Carl Sagan


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 03:20 PM    Msg. 17 of 120       
Think about AI syncing in Halo CE another way for a second. I know it's hard but just humor me.

No server side deterministic multi-player game made from the most modern games engines today can support a co-op game with AI and any more than 4 players and of those that do all require a broadband connection to support the amount of data that needs to be transferred.

Halo CE was released in 2003 from a game engine developed in 2000 and it was designed with a limited network protocol to work over a 56Kbps dial up modem connection.

So even ignoring the fact that Gearbox, the developer, has said that "AI can't sync over a network connection" and ignoring that fact that no other game engine today supports 16 players in a co-op game. What makes you think that anything you devise will allow you to transfer the network data required through a 56K data pipe and in an eleven year old game?


Edited by Dennis on Apr 29, 2011 at 03:21 PM


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 03:22 PM    Msg. 18 of 120       
@Switchblade Not if you switch out the weapon for the plasma pistol like i did. And i don't see how it would come from the top of it. it's set to come from the primary trigger marker of the plasma pistol that i added as the weapon in the vehicle tag. i'm already almost done with the vehicle. still working on getting the animations right. But after that i'll need a little help with the firing at the player..


Edited by grunt_eater on Apr 29, 2011 at 03:44 PM


Switchblade
Joined: Jul 3, 2007

"Do you believe my threat is ended with my death?"


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 03:25 PM    Msg. 19 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: Dennis

Think about AI syncing in Halo CE another way for a second. I know it's hard but just humor me.

No server side deterministic multi-player game made from the most modern games engines today can support a co-op game with AI and any more than 4 players and of those that do all require a broadband connection to support the amount of data that needs to be transferred.

Halo CE was released in 2003 from a game engine developed in 2000 and it was designed with a limited network protocol to work over a 56Kbps dial up modem connection.

So even ignoring the fact that Gearbox, the developer, has said that "AI can't sync over a network connection" and ignoring that fact that no other game engine today supports 16 players in a co-op game. What makes you think that anything you devise will allow you to transfer the network data required through a 56K data pipe and in an eleven year old game?


Edited by Dennis on Apr 29, 2011 at 03:21 PM


The post was labeled as an AI fix, but what he was suggestiong was more or less puppet vehicles scripted to look like they are reacting to players; if i'm reading his description properly, any respawned weapon or dropped equipment will automatically be "attacked" by these puppet vehicles(in all reality they'd just be triggering an already placed damage effect.)
Edited by Switchblade on Apr 29, 2011 at 03:26 PM

"Not if you switch out the weapon for the plasma pistol like i did. And i don't see how it would come from the top of it. it's set to come from the primary trigger marker of the plasma pistol that i added as the weapon in the vehicle tag. i'm already almost done with the vehicle. still working on getting the animations right. But after that i'll need a little help with the firing at the player.."

Set the damage effect a little higher than the trigger volume and you'd achieve the desired effect.
Edited by Switchblade on Apr 29, 2011 at 03:27 PM
Edited by Switchblade on Apr 29, 2011 at 03:28 PM


anonymous_2009
Joined: Jun 13, 2009


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 03:31 PM    Msg. 20 of 120       
OMG - AI WILL NOT Sync online... there is no code to transfer the data between machines... it's simple as that. Nothing about AI such as position's and their status is transferred between machines.

Sick of seeing these threads. Why do kids want AI so bad anyway, it sucks... my only guess is because want the satisfaction of killing an enemy which has no skill or thoughts as they can be killed easy.


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 03:58 PM    Msg. 21 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: ASP GRUNTS
Moving the vehicle around could be tricky, but it wouldn't be hard to come up with a system(no not teleporting to flags).


Do tell, we eagerly await your secrets.

Before you say anything about animations, I'd like to remind you that objects reset to their original position after a scripted animation is completed.


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 04:01 PM    Msg. 22 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
Quote: --- Original message by: Higuy
Quote: --- Original message by: grunt_eater
I know AI device machines and so on don't sync. What i was asking was if it is possible to make a vehicle, out of the bipeds model and animations, with no seats that is shoved around and looks like its running. And a script that takes control of the vehicles weapon and shoots at trigger volumes when a player enters them. It's not AI like it has been done in the past. But since vehicles sync if you can make it so there pushed around and have the constant animation of running, I think it will look like there AI thats moving around and shooting. As i said the only problem i see is the fact that the vehicle would have to be destructible witch wont sync


Just becuase vehicles sync dosent mean it will magically make bipeds sync. Heres the catch: AI act on random impulses according to what is happening and their firing positions, which isn't transferred through the connection. All your basically doing is taking a biped and attaching an AI to it, which is basically the same thing as any other AI on the screen...


Lol. No. There is no biped. AI. Actor_Variants Or any other thing involved. It is nothing But a vehicle. No attaching an AI to it. Nothing like that. It is no more than a vehicle that has the model and animations of a biped. It only looks like a biped. But it is not. It is a vehicle!!!!. Do you get it now?...

It is a vehicle. You animate it to look like it's moving around like a biped. And you make a script that says if you enter a trigger volume it attaches an effect to the right hand marker on the vehicle that spawns a projectile that has vary little force on it so it moves like a plasma bolt and is heat seeking so it tracks you and only does half of the damage of a normal one so it isn't so hard that it's no fun to play with.


I got your point from the start. I KNOW its a vehicle, but your basically making the vehicle as a biped to be used by an AI or player.

Also, custom animations DO NOT sync online what so ever. Your "idea" also seems insanely messy.


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 04:10 PM    Msg. 23 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: anonymous_2009
OMG - AI WILL NOT Sync online... there is no code to transfer the data between machines... it's simple as that. Nothing about AI such as position's and their status is transferred between machines.

Sick of seeing these threads. Why do kids want AI so bad anyway, it sucks... my only guess is because want the satisfaction of killing an enemy which has no skill or thoughts as they can be killed easy.


Dude. Your thinking Actor_Variants. I'm not using those. i'm saying make the biped into a vehicle and use that. Because vehicles sync. But i am not saying to attach an AI to it. And i have no idea what your talking about with the attacking the dropped weapon


Why does everyone think the only way is to make either the actor variant version or attach and AI to a biped or vehicle. See that way wont work for MP. So i'm trying to think of a new way and people just can't seem to grasp that
Edited by grunt_eater on Apr 29, 2011 at 04:31 PM


SlappyThePirate
Joined: Aug 24, 2009

You are irritating, I'll release nothing


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 04:31 PM    Msg. 24 of 120       
Has anyone even made these drivable player vehicles yet?


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 04:39 PM    Msg. 25 of 120       
There not supposed to be drivable. The vehicles can't be driven by AI or they wont sync. It's the vehicle thats supposed to be the new "AI"


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:11 PM    Msg. 26 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: ASP GRUNTS

Quote: --- Original message by: The Cereal Killer
Quote: --- Original message by: ASP GRUNTS
Moving the vehicle around could be tricky, but it wouldn't be hard to come up with a system(no not teleporting to flags).


Do tell, we eagerly await your secrets.

Before you say anything about animations, I'd like to remind you that objects reset to their original position after a scripted animation is completed.

Ask me what to specify on, and I will.


I quoted what I want you to specify.


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:24 PM    Msg. 27 of 120       
LLLLOOOOLLLL
I'm sorry but... that... no.

Also that's the same as teleporting to a flag, it just looks weirder because there are empty vehicles lying around the map in the positions that the "AI" vehicle would move to.
Edited by The Cereal Killer on Apr 29, 2011 at 05:30 PM


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:38 PM    Msg. 28 of 120       
So that could work for moving. I'm not quite sure how to do it but it sounds like a sound argument. Now what we need is firing...

@The Cereal Killer. You don't seem to keep posting pointless crap. unless you can help to get this project working then please be quiet.


And i don't understand why it's so incomprehensible for everyone to grasp the fact that you might actually be able to get this working and have something that tricks people into thinking that it's AI.
Edited by grunt_eater on Apr 29, 2011 at 05:44 PM


TehArtyom
Joined: Jan 8, 2011

:)


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:40 PM    Msg. 29 of 120       
Dude... L! O! L! You have just shown me a whole new level of retarded for you.


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:46 PM    Msg. 30 of 120       
And why is that?. Unless you come up with a legit answer then please shut up. Otherwise your just trolling and unneeded


ODX
Joined: Jul 26, 2007

A rare sight, indeed.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:47 PM    Msg. 31 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: TehArtyom
Dude... L! O! L! You have just shown me a whole new level of retarded for you.

He was just curious and wanted to know your opinions, but apparently some of you are too stupid yourselves to understand that. I'm pretty sure Dennis already put this to rest dozens of times too, though I'm loving the more "detailed" description he gave this time around.
Edited by ODX on Apr 29, 2011 at 05:48 PM


grunt_eater
Joined: Jan 26, 2011

Everything except biped rigging.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:51 PM    Msg. 32 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: ODX
I'm pretty sure Dennis already put this to rest dozens of times too, though I'm loving the more "detailed" description he gave this time around.
Edited by ODX on Apr 29, 2011 at 05:48 PM


False. Dennis has put to rest he idea of using Actor_variants in multiplayer. Not the idea of making a vehicle that moves around and shoots without an AI


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 05:58 PM    Msg. 33 of 120       
@ASP I'm not criticizing you personally, it just bothers me when people constantly feel the need to post threads saying, "I can now sync AI," or, "I can simulate AI online," and then when they are proven wrong they say, "well you're obviously trolling/stupid/misinterpreting," (so far OP has done all three.)

Quote: --- Original message by: ASP GRUNTS
No, you need flags at definite positions. This is more mobile. And who said you will see the dummy vehicle? I know what I'm talking about here, and it wouldn't look "weird". Not the way you're thinking.

And just who might be driving the vehicle which the "AI" vehicle is attached to?


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 06:06 PM    Msg. 34 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: The Cereal Killer
@ASP I'm not criticizing you personally, it just bothers me when people constantly feel the need to post threads saying, "I can now sync AI," or, "I can simulate AI online," and then when they are proven wrong they say, "well you're obviously trolling/stupid/misinterpreting," (so far OP has done all three.)

Quote: --- Original message by: ASP GRUNTS
No, you need flags at definite positions. This is more mobile. And who said you will see the dummy vehicle? I know what I'm talking about here, and it wouldn't look "weird". Not the way you're thinking.

And just who might be driving the vehicle which the "AI" vehicle is attached to?


^

and if you are going to say its animated,

1. custom_animation does not sync

2. how is the vehicle going to move depending on player position...

look, before you say you know everything about this and that it can work flawlessly, why don't you actually show us ingame and working correctly.


The Cereal Killer
Joined: Mar 18, 2011

Scripts, AI, cutscenes, ui_widgets, animation.


Posted: Apr 29, 2011 06:17 PM    Msg. 35 of 120       
Quote: --- Original message by: ASP GRUNTS

The "AI" vehicle wouldn't be driven by anything. There are no actual AIs in use. It's a vehicle with no seats, and no physics. It moves around simply by attaching and detaching itself to a marker(which is why I strongly believe there would be no syncing problems with its movement)
I'm talking about the movement of the item that it's being repeatedly attached to. At what point do you plan to generate that?



Quote: It may be hard to visualize this if you aren't familiar with this type of scripting.
I'm familiar with all types of scripting; if I weren't, I would have no right to be here telling everyone off.



Quote: --- Original message by: ASP GRUNTS
How can I show this ingame when I've been developing the idea for it like a half hour ago? Its not like I'm going to fully create this, I'm just suggesting methods that in theory
So then I guess this was a lie:
Quote: --- ASP said earlier:
What's wrong with you? lol...its a proven method. I've used it on multiple times and it works fine. There a prob?
Weird.
Edited by The Cereal Killer on Apr 29, 2011 at 06:22 PM

 
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