I know that not everyone can figure stuff out themselves. But like I said, the best way to learn is to try and do it yourself, which he has not even attempted to do for animations/bsps/sounds. He wanted someone to give it to him, rather than at least attempt to try and figure it out. It's like if you go to a professor for help on a homework problem, but you have not done any work on it. The professor is not likely to help you as you have not put forth any effort into figuring it out yourself. That same concept applies in this situation, but you are too stubborn to see that I suppose.

I help people all the time as a matter of fact, but it's whenever they have actually put forth some effort, or its someone that I can trust with the work I've done and will use it responsibly. Lodex, you are the one who needs to mature, as you have not changed one bit over the years.


Actually, the two games are very similar, and Gravemind was talking about possibly supporting Reach Beta by using other people's code (proving my point even more). So the information is indeed relevant.

I'm going to jump in here and give my opinion after reading.

Shadow spartan, you sound like an ass talking to others (I didnt see you give any actual helpful information, other than just say "thats not programming", do it yourself), and if you do have the tools to make sound extraction possible, why not help out the rest of us who do not wish to dwelve deep into the realm of programming to make it happen? A lot of us focus on lots of other aspects of game creation, for example, I focus on level design and environments more than anything and have had lots of experience. I've also written tutorials myself and left creations I've helped build and make open to the public so people are free to expand and learn from them.

Sprinkle, if you have been around this community long enough you will know that ZTeam does not share alot of tags, however their members that use to be on the team (or still are) are very knowledgeable in extraction, but yet, hardly share the tools they use to do so. They also dont share the tags they have extracted either, except in .map files that are protected, and even then, the only maps they released are from years ago. The quote above that you posted does not contribute to anything at hand, such as the program Gravemind or the other functions he wanted to put into the app. All it says is "Learn yourself". This a really dumb thing. It's like saying, go learn to read, write, compute equations, etc all by yourself. Throughout school you have people teach you and help and you expand on that, there is no difference here except that "teacher" is just some person who holds their knowledge to themselves.

Knowledge is meant to be shared, I don't see why some cannot see that. It's a very precious thing to some, but sharing can help spread understanding of it and also spread appreciation for those who helped discover and understand it in the first place.

I don't? I've released more things than most on this forum, advocated for the open sourceness of the CMT mod, not to mention my role in HEK+ and HTC being released with CE map compatibility enabled.

Telling someone to attempt to figure something out themselves, whenever they are wanting to learn more about a particular subject is not helpful information? Why should anyone spend loads amount of their time teaching someone, or give up the hard work that they have poured a lot of time into, whenever that person does not even attempt to do it themselves at least once? That is what it boils down to. If you put forth no effort, you shouldn't receive anything.

I haven't released extraction tools for a couple of reasons. If they were released, there would be a lot more use of ripped content. I would much rather have the community learn and become talented by modeling/animating/texturing/etc their own content rather than relying on content used in the other Halo games. You won't learn that way. While Zteam did use ripped content in the maps, we did it because we were a small team, and we wanted to use the knowledge we had gained by researching the various Halo games. We wanted to replicate the experience of that game as close as possible so that people would enjoy them.

If thats the way you view teaching, you are horribly mistaken. You should be a guide, nothing more, but also encouraging, and I see none of any of that. You force the person to work themselves on their own projects, but you give assistance when stuck or need help when not understanding something. Dont just say "Do it yourself", thats about as helpful as not saying anything at all. I've had a few 'mentors' in the past, for example Lodex and Il Duce Primo and I learned ALOT of valuable information and criticism to improve my work without them having to hold my hand the entire way through.

Secondly, that is the most retarded thing I've heard and sounds like their is no logical thinking in it. If people are going to rip, they are going to rip. There are plenty of programs to do so besides ones you have not released. The people who are creative are going to make their own assets and be inspired by others, and they will not rip and will continue to be creative. It depends on the person. If people are determined on making Halo 3 in Halo 1, they will rip assets and do it. There are programs to bypass protection and extract from Halo 2 - Reach. Personally, I would love to see a sound extraction tool for Halo 3 because their is plenty of sounds in the map files NOT included on the OST and I would like to be able to listen to them and even possibly include them in other projects for example, along with others.

Lastly, you are being very ironic in the last post. There is plenty of knowledge to still learn from using ripped content and putting it through your own animations and tag work (for basic users, at least). Of all people, the ZTeam people should know that. It's worth alot more when you have something to put ingame that has no previous importation. You can look at the assault rifle tags and look at all the variables, but you will never really understand them unless you start tweaking them. It's great to take a brand new weapon thats not in Halo, for example, the Brute Shot, and completely make your own tags and mess with the variables to see how they work and create desired outcomes.
Edited by Higuy on Aug 22, 2012 at 09:26 PM

I'm going to hate myself for this...

I hate to join the fray, and I'm not taking sides here ShadowSpartan, but I just can't help but point out... people have been trying to keep their tags to themselves, trying to encourage custom content, since the dawn of CE. Yet, all I ever see is Halo 2, 3, and Reach wannabe tags by people who are obviously not professionals and can't match up to Bungie's original work. I've very rarely seen actual custom content that came from an original idea, rather than trying to imitate other games' ideas. Keeping the things from those games you do have from people doesn't encourage customized content, it only makes the amateur impressions worse, because as I said before, almost nobody in the CE community can be labelled as a professional save a select few, making the quality of their impressions to be at poop-tier. I agree with you to a point about people trying to make things themselves, and almost always, a person knows something much better when he KNOWS what he's working with. But I watched Gravemind slave over this thing for months, trying to figure out why this code was faulty, how the bitmap extractor worked, how the UI could be organized better, what improvements he could make over existing code, learning a new freakin' language by trying to jump into the pool and learn to swim. A programmer doesn't have to learn how to build a computer, write a kernel, write an OS, then build a compiler for the OS, and make all of its software, just to be a good programmer, or to even be considered a programmer. Information and data are now being used as substitutes for royalty titles and privilege. The very argument you're trying to make is only bound to reciprocate by producing the opposite effect.

Back on topic now.
Thanks Gravemind, I re-downloaded and it worked fine; no problems thus far, but I'll try to get my hands on an ODST map to see if I get this exception.
Also, I suggest just making an "Open" file option in the File menu. Having both New and Open is kind of redundant.

I know it seems kinda redundant, but they each have their own purpose. "New" will open any map in a new tab, whereas "Open" will open any map in the current tab, first closing the current map file.
Edited by Gravemind on Aug 22, 2012 at 09:29 PM

How can you be a guide whenever someone does not put forth the effort towards accomplishing a goal? You cannot expect someone to hand you everything for nothing.


I know that there are programs out there, and people are still going to rip no matter what. But obviously the programs have loads of problems or else people wouldn't still be complaining about Zteam never releasing our applications, so I am not going to contribute to making it easier.


While I do agree that there is a lot of knowledge that can be learned from extracted assets, a lot can also be learned from tinkering with the existing stuff yourself, or creating your own as I said before. How can you learn to animate whenever you just extract an animation? How can you learn to texture when all you ever do is extract bitmaps? I know that in some cases using extracted assets is inevitable, but it should never be used all the time. I do agree about your Brute Shot example, that is one good example of how starting with a model and getting it ingame yourself, learning to animate it, tagging it, etc. If I saw more of that, then maybe I would change my point of view.

Thankfully my teachers didnt just tell me to figure it out myself. That seems lazy to me, take the time to actually help, and expect nothing in return, thats how it is done.

People complain not about programs, but about tags like the FP Legs or lots of other things CAD has created under the ZTeam name without releasing them or, at the very least, giving any insight into the creation of the tags and leaving out alot of other people that were inspired by them in the dark. Sharing knowledge contributes to the creation of more assets by building ontop of it.

Anyway, once again, the thing I would like to see is sound extraction. It would be a very handy tool for getting the source music and some of the sound effects. Not everyone is a very good sound creator or has the necessary tools to make their own.

im with higuy, the point of having a community is to collaborate and share. those members who are most admired and remembered are those who share their work.

Even rippers get remembered and admired,to a limited extent.

Well,is there any way to import enf's to gmax?

This thread seems like it's in need of- ..... "THE ARGUMENT STOPPER!!"
Meh, you guys are just going to hate me for this, so I'm just going to sit this one out...

The ones in "ui\chud\" you can get from the other maps instead. If you copy the mainmenu.map file and open the copy, then you will be able to get some of the other bitmaps like the skulls and the emblems. The mainmenu map is meant to be loaded as an external map, so if you load it directly it causes "file already in use" issues because it tries to read it as an external map while it's already being read as the opened map.


You would need a gmax version of the import script. Other than that, you would have to export as .obj instead, or get someone with 3Ds Max to import the emf, then export as .obj with the rig intact.
Edited by Gravemind on Aug 23, 2012 at 08:34 AM

Yes, we can tell :-)
Yet you basically contradict yourself here.

I'd love to see you mention some names of people from the community you have actually helped, we'll put it against your "I help people all the time" statement.

The best way to learn is to try and do it yourself, a noble statement. But if it doesn't bear fruit then a good mentor steps in. Heck a good mentor will usually give a starting explanation, afterwards then the pupil will mess around himself. Some can get through the "messing" stage themselves, others cannot. Really Shadow, you just don't get it.

And I love how you jab in a personal attack every time you talk to me, this to me implies you are feeling insecure about your own position in your posts here, therefore you try and destabilise your debating opponents by calling them "immature idiots" every time they point out that you are simply incorrect in your teaching policies. You also ignore any elaborations as to why you are incorrect, and simply keep repeating yourself "doing it yourself is the best way to learn". Now that the pressure has come on, you even resort to lieing "I help many people" vs "I only help well known community members".

I could respond with equal fire, but I stand above that. I see many others do not support your side in this, and that alone speaks for itself. Perhaps it is time for you to leave this debate and spare yourself further humiliation.

Nevermind, not even worth it.
Edited by Sergeant 1337 on Aug 23, 2012 at 02:49 AM

It can extract bitmaps from all those things, but not any bitmap in the game. There's a few formats it can't get, but for the most part it should be able to get the bitmaps people want.

but you will try to make them ex tractable right

here's the error i get when trying to load up the cinematic biped for the odst

http://i49.tinypic.com/k33ods.png

Also, just putting this out there. ShadowSpartan, while i agree with you whole "people shouldn't just take assets and not try to learn from what they're getting" thing (paraphrased ofc), it seems you're going about it in the wrong way. Personally, only reason i rip is because i lack the proper skill to model/texture/unwrap the assets that i'd like to have. I've been trying to learn how to do this (i.e. building a bunch of test maps, looking at tutorials, etc) but as far as i see it, TM_Updates has a point in which ripping assets helps you learn. If it wasnt for me being able to get my hands on the Halo 3 ODST Bipeds, i probably would never have learned how to edit bitmaps, make custom bipeds, or even learn proper rigging without taking some long, drawn out path. True most people will rip just for the sake of ripping, but not everybody is the same, remember that.
Edited by R93_Sniper on Aug 23, 2012 at 03:07 AM

only think it can extract stuff from halo 3 not odst

I've made as many extractable as I can. The rest are in formats I don't know, so I can't find a way to decode them.


Thats not the biped tag? If you're looking to extract the model, its the "render_model" tags (or "mode" in short names). It wasn't made to handle ODST maps, so a lot of the things in the meta viewer will error, and all the model permutation names will be wrong. In the meta viewer you should just be able to click continue and it will load what it can.

Sorry but that's not entirely correct. People complained a lot about us never releasing animation extraction for Halo 2, or proper model extraction for Halo 2. Then it moved on to us not releasing Halo 3 extraction. CAD has pretty much disappeared, hence why none of his stuff that he did under Zteam has been released.


I agree about sounds, that is one exception I would make.


I am not going to go down the list of everyone I have helped, but I have done numerous things for CMT members over the years (masterz, iffy, etc), also did some OS work for Rambo's maps a while ago and answered some OS questions from Dwood.


What part of he had not event tried to get animations/sounds/bsps do you not comprehend? He wanted it handed to him, simple as that. You are the one who does not get it.


Lodex, you talk about me being on a high horse, but you are so stubborn that you do not see other people's views. You have not changed one bit. I do not feel insecure at all, instead, I feel is like I am dealing with a little child. As I said before, anytime I make a post you are the one who jumps in and starts an argument with me, because that is how childish you are. I'm done with you.

Well...what would you do if you exported a model as a text file?
Edited by Dumb AI on Aug 23, 2012 at 08:12 PM

Why don't you start by looking at the resource data (raw data as its called in the community) of the bitmaps that can extracted currently through the use of the library? By doing that, and looking at what exactly the bitmap decode functions in the library are doing, you can learn how the data is stored. After doing that and learning from it, you can then look at an unknown format and figure out some ideas of how to decode it (a lot of formats are very similar). Once you get an idea of how to possibly decode it, program a function to try that idea. If it doesn't work, then try again.

I think there was a text file importer on HaloMaps as part of a CE model tag importer.


I already looked at the decode functions, and tried some stuff on the missing formats. They all turned out fubar though. I'm guessing DXN-mono-alpha will be similar to DXN, and DXT5a alpha/mono will be similar to DXT5, and the same for DXT3/a mono/alpha (I still don't know what the 25 and 31 formats are though). Finding the differences will be difficult though, seeing as I'm no reverse engineer.
Edited by Gravemind on Aug 23, 2012 at 08:31 PM

So keep trying. No one starts out being awesome at reverse engineering, its something that you have to keep trying at and learning. That's the whole point I've been trying to get across, but others bring up stuff from the past because it makes them feel better about themselves. We all started somewhere. If you truly want to program for Halo, then you will have to learn how to reverse engineer some stuff, simple as that. The best way to do that is practice. So keep trying on unknown bitmap formats (even do some research on the internet, you'd be surprised at the amount of information out there), because that will lead you into more complex things.

Yes, I agree a lot of the things people have brought up are irrelevant and/or unrelated to the topic. And I have been searching on the internet, no luck yet though.

Also can everyone move any further arguments to PMs or somewhere else please.
Edited by Gravemind on Aug 23, 2012 at 10:33 PM

Good for you that you had the last word, you must feel proud and allmighty now :-)
But don't forget that you have an entire community against you, so I think it's safe to say you were the one who did not "get it" haha :-)
Edited by TM_updates on Aug 24, 2012 at 01:09 AM

TM Updates, please stop instigating, you're distracting the rest of us from trying to get an awesome application and assist in it's development

to you Gravemind, thanks for that. I've used Xtraction and the original adjustant before and i notice how like, everything is named wrong. my issue is that it really just misses out on some of the permutations that i'd want (I.E. Buck's Knife Sheath, Mickey's cool bladed shoulderpeice)

No problem, I've said what I had to and once more congratulate Gravemind on putting this all together. I hope that if he gets stuck with adding in the features he seeks, that there will be someone to help him out who can tell him more about it :-)

I understand that fully, Lodex has really skewed everyone's thoughts on my views. I stated that you first need to try doing stuff yourself before you can expect anyone to help you, simple as that. That is how stuff goes, you can't get something for nothing.


The people of Halomaps are just jumping onto your bandwagon, good job. You must feel so proud always starting an argument with me.


He didn't put anything together really, he has slightly modified a library that someone else has made and slapped a GUI on top of it. That is not hard to do by any means. He told me himself on AIM that he doesn't even really want to research the stuff himself, so I don't see anyone in the foreseeable future helping him if he doesn't put forth the effort.
Edited by ShadowSpartan on Aug 24, 2012 at 12:56 PM
Edited by ShadowSpartan on Aug 24, 2012 at 01:32 PM

This is where you and I are fundementally different.
I am the type of person who believes in helping people without expecting something in return, I personally enjoy helping out others when I can and their gratitude alone is mostly worth it. Sometimes you even get nice things back in the long run.

This reminds me of the assistents we had at university. There were several types, there was the kind that gave you a basis and would solve an example exersize with you, and then let you try on your own, always open to answer questions or give you a push in the right direction if you were really stuck. And at the end of the session we would go over everything and if any questions were unresolved, he would even upload solutions and stuff online afterwards.

But there was occasionally also the more lazy assistent. The type that just came in to collect his paycheck for the day and told us to "make these exersizes" without any summary or basis.

Needless to say, most people (if not all) preferred the former assistent, and you could see that assistant had a passion for what he was doing, and he enjoyed teaching these skills to others. Not only that, but it was those sessions that most students learnt the most from, by far.

Just let that sink in, I don't think it's humanly possible to disagree on the subject of which teaching method is by far the best.

And yes, he did put something together. Else he would not have a thread in which he releases that something. There is no need to belittle his work just because you don't find it impressive. He's helping other people with releasing this, and I'm sure that must feel nice to him.

Never once did I say that you should expect something in return for helping someone, don't you dare put words into my mouth. I have stated over and over in this thread that if you want someone to help you, you need to at least show that person you have put forth some effort into figuring out the problem yourself. That is completely different from what you think I am saying, and I cannot fathom why you cannot understand that.


He may be helping some people, but he does not want to put forth any effort into adding new features because he doesn't really want to learn how to research. He would rather pay people to give him libraries that can extract the additional content, which is sad to me. I'd much rather him try to learn more, rather than just relying on even more libraries that he does not understand.