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»Forums Index »Halo Custom Edition (Bungie/Gearbox) »Halo CE General Discussion »The effort put into maps

Author Topic: The effort put into maps (15 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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Oskarmandude
Joined: Mar 16, 2013

Make Halomaps Fully Hectic Again


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 12:58 AM    Msg. 1 of 15       
Halo 2 Anniversary only contains 6 remade maps, so people want 343i to make the rest DLC.
That's fine, but the Halo community seems fine with them selling these maps.
Selling maps that were practically already made years ago?

I had an argument with multiple people about this, I told one that the Unreal Tournament series offers 93 maps as DLC and all of them are free. Their argument against that was that it was from a different time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't selling Halo 2's DLC set the standard for map packs (Freaking $10 for 3-6 maps)?

Anyways, I came across another person who talked about all the "time and effort" it takes (for a Triple-A developer) to make these maps. I then told him about the Halo Custom Edition community. I talked about how they put so much time and effort into making thousands of maps, usually in small teams or by a single person (I specifically spoke about CMT SPV3, Lumoria and the RPG_Beta series).

So what did he say? "I guarantee you that these remade maps take more time and effort to make than Custom Edition maps".

What's your take on this? Personally, I think he's a douchebag trying to damage control with misinformation.
Edited by Oskarmandude on Aug 19, 2014 at 01:03 AM


Dumb AI
Joined: Sep 18, 2011

Dead.


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 01:13 AM    Msg. 2 of 15       
I suppose it's fair game to make players pay for the content.
At least some effort and time had to be put into making it after all.

I kind of doubt that the AAA remakes take more time and effort. For people like us, it might take a lot to achieve the same result but we aren't doing those remakes, now are we?


Oskarmandude
Joined: Mar 16, 2013

Make Halomaps Fully Hectic Again


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 01:23 AM    Msg. 3 of 15       
Still, the maps were already made. All they're doing is making them look prettier and have some dynamic feature. Whoopie lets say we want to give them $10 for that.


xnx
Joined: Feb 12, 2013

h2 marine anims or i detonate the vest


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 01:28 AM    Msg. 4 of 15       
Yeah, conceptualizing/balancing a map requires a lot more thought than just giving a map a graphical facelift. However, honestly we're already getting a ridiculous amount of content for $60 and I would just prefer that 343 directs those resources to working on Halo 5. Also on a semi related note I would appreciate it if 343 dropped the "Guardians" tag from Halo 5. It's confusing, unnecessary, and has nothing to do with the game just like the "combat evolved" tag on Halo 1.


Oskarmandude
Joined: Mar 16, 2013

Make Halomaps Fully Hectic Again


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 01:52 AM    Msg. 5 of 15       
We're getting a ridiculous amount of content that we already own. It would be cheaper to hunt down copies of Halo 1-4.


BKTiel
Joined: Mar 18, 2014

strong independent bird needs no cage


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 05:08 AM    Msg. 6 of 15       
I agree with the guy you talked to, to be honest. People here seem to think a bit too highly of their projects some times, and to be blunt I think your comparison that went so far as to even place any of them on the same counter top as commercial work is a shining example.

Making maps for free for an (in technology years) ancient game takes a certain degree of skill. I'd argue making anything to be taken seriously in this current generation is a far greater feat.


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 06:17 AM    Msg. 7 of 15       
The sheer amount of money and time that is going into these maps is absurd. It can't really be compared to what any community made map is I'd be happy paying for H2A DLC as the MP looks really good, and if 10$ can get me even 10 hours of entertainment... well I'm okay with that.


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Aug 19, 2014 08:41 AM    Msg. 8 of 15       
I think its fine to pay for them but only a certain cost.

The map's aren't hard to upgrade visually, believe it or not. The maps are there already, balanced, proven, gameplay certified. Alot of the assets will already be created for them because of the campaign. Of course some custom assets would definitely be need to be made, such as the sky for example since they are so much more complex, but this isn't the era where they are still using the same kind of BSP creation method's we do here, more along the lines of taking an object, placing it in the max scene, and moving onto the next. No need to worry about those sealed world rules. Literally all you have to do is recreate it visually. After that some playtesting is all that really needs to be done to ensure it stays true to the origional, and whalla - you have yourself a map. Easier then it sounds obviously, but it isn't complicated, and with a team of say at least 100+ people in their company working on the game, something like that shouldn't be hard. It is indeed absurd it would take a ton of money to produce them.

No for the time taken to produce one compared to a custom edition map - you have to realize a couple things:

1. All of us don't get paid for this, thus meaning that the maps we make are not something we work on 40hrs a week (normally).

2. Because we don't get paid or work as often, our maps take much more time to complete, and most importantly, polish, also considering that generally only a couple people work on a single map at a time, if not a single person.


Oskarmandude
Joined: Mar 16, 2013

Make Halomaps Fully Hectic Again


Posted: Aug 20, 2014 02:24 AM    Msg. 9 of 15       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
Especially if they want to keep the gameplay EXACTLY like it used to be.

That just dismissed your whole point.

Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
The sheer amount of money and time that is going into these maps is absurd. It can't really be compared to what any community made map is I'd be happy paying for H2A DLC as the MP looks really good, and if 10$ can get me even 10 hours of entertainment... well I'm okay with that.

I wouldn't say time, since the engine and assets seem to be recycled. Money, I guess, maybe.
The geometry is most likely recycled and then snazzied up, whereas the Halo CE community spends hours making new content.

And come on, you have to admit that this is nothing compared to Black Mesa. The time and effort put into Black Mesa is astonishing, and it uses Source. The Source SDK isn't very easy to use and so people only use it to make projects that Valve will hopefully notice and sell, like Portal, CS, L4D, etc. (I know Black Mesa is irrelevant, but it shows the dedication that fans will put into custom content)

And if the gameplay is just going to be the same, then why not play the original multiplayer? And console gamers refer to PC gamers as graphics junkies...
Edited by Oskarmandude on Aug 20, 2014 at 02:31 AM


nihao123456ftw
Joined: Mar 24, 2012


Posted: Aug 20, 2014 07:20 AM    Msg. 10 of 15       
Not exactly on topic, but $10 for just 3-6 maps is a rip off. What is this, EA? Pfft. Anyways, I doubt many people will play DLC multiplayer maps, especially seeing how DLC maps in Battlefield 3 are just not played anymore (lots of topics on the forums talking all about that, e.g here: https://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/forum/threadview/2955065227605444041/)

Ok, $10 isn't a whole lot of money to be so angry about, yeah. But with that money I'd rather spend it n something else tbh.



As for on topic: Well you probably can't really compare the whole of this community to the workers at 343 in terms of efforts. The guys at 343 are all trained professionals (*cough*) whereas us guys are just hobbyists. With that difference in skill, I'd say most of this community puts way more effort into creating maps than the guys at 343 even if most of the maps here are less detailed, since most of us are obviously not as skilled as most of the guys in 343. We are doing this for the sake of our own interests whereas the guys at 343 are being forced to do it by their bosses. That alone is probably enough to convince me that we are putting more effort considering how lazy everyone is these days including me.

Oh. And about that guy who said "I guarantee you that these remade maps take more time and effort to make than Custom Edition maps", did he actually bother taking a look about the content you mentioned and took that into consideration? If not, then that's one ignorant man you have there.


Oooof course though, i'm only speaking in general about the community. Everyone's different ofc. There's always some of those lazy latino mappers doing you-know-what (some, as in not all, again (i think)).
Edited by nihao123456ftw on Aug 20, 2014 at 07:29 AM


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Aug 20, 2014 08:16 AM    Msg. 11 of 15       
Quote: --- Original message by: Oskarmandude

Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
Especially if they want to keep the gameplay EXACTLY like it used to be.

That just dismissed your whole point.

Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
The sheer amount of money and time that is going into these maps is absurd. It can't really be compared to what any community made map is I'd be happy paying for H2A DLC as the MP looks really good, and if 10$ can get me even 10 hours of entertainment... well I'm okay with that.

I wouldn't say time, since the engine and assets seem to be recycled. Money, I guess, maybe.
The geometry is most likely recycled and then snazzied up, whereas the Halo CE community spends hours making new content.

And come on, you have to admit that this is nothing compared to Black Mesa. The time and effort put into Black Mesa is astonishing, and it uses Source. The Source SDK isn't very easy to use and so people only use it to make projects that Valve will hopefully notice and sell, like Portal, CS, L4D, etc. (I know Black Mesa is irrelevant, but it shows the dedication that fans will put into custom content)

And if the gameplay is just going to be the same, then why not play the original multiplayer? And console gamers refer to PC gamers as graphics junkies...
Edited by Oskarmandude on Aug 20, 2014 at 02:31 AM

They are creating new assets, all new geometry for the levels, and as you stated in a less elegant way, they are once again revising the Halo Engine for next gen consoles as well as porting it to a whole new console architecture. This isn't a small scale project, it costs a fair amount of money for what is ultimately a very small part of a very large package.

And the CE community hardly spends hours creating new content, 90% of what's out there is also ripped content from other games (or recreated content from other games), so I don't really get the community outrage for a revised H2 MP.

Also the MP for this is not going to be the same as H2, it's based on H2's sandbox but is it's own thing.
Edited by Masters1337 on Aug 20, 2014 at 08:18 AM


BKTiel
Joined: Mar 18, 2014

strong independent bird needs no cage


Posted: Aug 20, 2014 12:27 PM    Msg. 12 of 15       
I kinda thought about the title a bit.

How much effort does it take one high-class artist or dev to work together with as many as a hundred people at a similar level of skill to create content for a game?

How much effort, then, does it take a single amateur to create a pale imitation of the former?



They're of vastly different levels (novice vs pro) but I guess you really could say it takes a lot more out of some teen at a computer to make a model and ingame it than someone who's spent years doing this kind of thing and has probably reached the point where he/she's just going through the motions.


Arteen
Joined: Mar 8, 2008

...


Posted: Aug 20, 2014 05:25 PM    Msg. 13 of 15       
On one hand, maps are usually premium content. Since only a small segment of the audience is willing to pay for map packs, DLC maps cost proportionally more than base maps.

On the other hand, modern maps do take an incredible amount of effort, even with all the modern tools to assist creation. The art, the design, the continual playtesting and reworking, the use of heatmaps and other analysis tools and so forth mean that maps take substantially more time, effort and talent to create than what even the best mappers have put out in CE. Honestly, I can think of only a handful of Custom Edition maps that match the quality of the stock Halo 1 maps, and that's not much of a high bar.


BKTiel
Joined: Mar 18, 2014

strong independent bird needs no cage


Posted: Aug 20, 2014 05:33 PM    Msg. 14 of 15       
Quote: --- Original message by: Arteen
On one hand, maps are usually premium content. Since only a small segment of the audience is willing to pay for map packs, DLC maps cost proportionally more than base maps.

On the other hand, modern maps do take an incredible amount of effort, even with all the modern tools to assist creation. The art, the design, the continual playtesting and reworking, the use of heatmaps and other analysis tools and so forth mean that maps take substantially more time, effort and talent to create than what even the best mappers have put out in CE.


That argument would hold true if we were debating the overall amount of work put into the finished product, but effort is very much relative. It's like comparing some scrawny teenager to a 10 year bodybuilder and who's going to need to exert more effort lifting a barbell.

e: Of course, that analogy is pretty flawed given the outcome isn't the same (an AAA map vs a CE map/ just lifting the bar) but if we're just taking the term 'map' as getting an acceptable product that fits where they belong...
Edited by BKTiel on Aug 20, 2014 at 05:35 PM


Oskarmandude
Joined: Mar 16, 2013

Make Halomaps Fully Hectic Again


Posted: Aug 21, 2014 01:21 AM    Msg. 15 of 15       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
They are creating new assets, all new geometry for the levels, and as you stated in a less elegant way, they are once again revising the Halo Engine for next gen consoles as well as porting it to a whole new console architecture. This isn't a small scale project, it costs a fair amount of money for what is ultimately a very small part of a very large package.

And the CE community hardly spends hours creating new content, 90% of what's out there is also ripped content from other games (or recreated content from other games), so I don't really get the community outrage for a revised H2 MP.

Also the MP for this is not going to be the same as H2, it's based on H2's sandbox but is it's own thing.
Edited by Masters1337 on Aug 20, 2014 at 08:18 AM


They have more experience with reverse engineering the engines than anyone else, making a port to a system that is supposedly easy to program for is a measly task. Then they rip models, textures, shaders, etc from other Halo games. I'm not counting those johnlex and sphinxbio maps, I'm talking about the part of the community that actually cares about what they're doing. The MP is the same except that there's a Mongoose with guns on it, the Assault Rifle (the SMG was supposed to replace the AR in Halo 2...), some minor map dynamics such as a waterfall and some balancing. That really doesn't go a long way to make this worth so much money.

 

 
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