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»Forums Index »Halo Custom Edition (Bungie/Gearbox) »Halo CE General Discussion »HALO EXPOSED - Hardly Lebel, Multiplayer Designer Starts a Blog

Author Topic: HALO EXPOSED - Hardly Lebel, Multiplayer Designer Starts a Blog (20 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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stunt_man
Joined: Sep 22, 2009

GMYF - Now hosting proper MLG gametypes!


Posted: Feb 11, 2015 10:29 PM    Msg. 1 of 20       
Hardy Lebel, the Multiplayer Lead Designer for the original Halo now has a blog and has done two webcam ask-me-anything sessions.

He mainly worked on the first Halo game - he wasn't a fan of the way Halo 2 multiplayer was balanced and he only worked on singleplayer because of it. He's created some maps (ex: Rat Race) and had a hand in many others (ex: Hang 'Em High, Damnation, Boarding Action).

He recognizes H1's competitive merit as an "accident," but that its deep meta-game is undeniable. If you are unfamiliar with H1's multiplayer meta-game, the things he is referring to are:


  • Static weapon timers. Weapons in CE multiplayer spawn at set intervals throughout a match. For example, if the overshield is set to spawn every 90 seconds, it will spawn at :90, :180, :270, etc. H1 is the only game to feature this functionality.

  • The player spawning system. For in-depth information, please see this thread: http://gamebattles.majorleaguegaming.com/forums/t/The-Halo-CE-Player-Spawn-System-Fully-Explained-7843178. For example, in Team Slayer, teamates will spawn at a spawn point near you, and if you aren't near a spawn point, they will spawn at a random spawn point - unless an enemy is blocking it. This means that if one team has map control, they can effectively trap the other team by forcing them to spawn in the same area of the map. However, the trapped team can still escape by all dying at once - because the first player that spawns could spawn behind the enemy team, and the rest of his dead teamates will spawn at points near him

  • The weapon balance. He discusses how the weapons are balanced in H1 compared to some other games, including H2. He seems to value a perfectly-balanced matrix of weapons, but overall he respects the importance of the subjective feeling of the weapon for the player. This is in line with something that Jason Jones said about the H1 pistol: "I added code specifically, when the map was loaded, to change a single number on the pistol," which he did because he didn't feel comfortable with the way the pistol felt at the end of development (source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/8/4503242/bungie-co-founder-says-hes-to-blame-for-halos-overpowered-pistol)



Hardy talks about a lot of other stuff ranging from cut content in Halo 1 (jetpacks!), last minute changes to some MP maps (Sidewinder teleporters were always supposed to be two-way - Gearbox got it right), his amazement at how far the H1 competitive scene has come (high-level tricks like nading weapons to you, manipulating the player and weapon spawn systems, etc) and a lot of general level design guidelines.

Here's Hardy Lebel's blog:

http://www.hardylebel.com/

Here are links to his webcam AMA's:

Part 1: http://youtu.be/xEhdyzjVVqk
Part 2: http://youtu.be/Knb-1uJJktA

Here's Missingno's Youtube channel (one of the only pros that makes videos about breaking down H1's gameplay, commentating on competitive matches, and all-around useful tips for some of the more popular maps):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2yeQnuwxkvCU0Zw3XKcPnA

The Team Beyond forum houses high-level discussion for all the Halo games - but it also seems to be the last place you'll find active competitive Halo 1 players from the OG Xbox version. Here's the link:

http://teambeyond.net/forum/



Why am I posting all this you ask? Because I'm fairly certain that 95% of the people who create MP maps for Custom Edition had/have no idea about what made the original maps so balanced. This is based off the fact that I've never seen it discussed in the community in the last decade, and also from personal experience ripping maps and finding haphazardly-placed player spawn points and weapon spawn times left at their default settings.

Hopefully you found this interesting and even if only 10 of you actually clicked the links I posted, maybe one of you will make a map worth hosting and playing over and over.

Edited by Dennis on Feb 12, 2015 at 11:07 AM


altis94
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

Join my Discord https://discord.gg/GDVEaRD


Posted: Feb 12, 2015 09:24 AM    Msg. 2 of 20       
Saw this before it was cool.


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Feb 12, 2015 10:24 AM    Msg. 3 of 20       
Thanks for posting stunt.


Ifafudafi
Joined: Jun 23, 2010


Posted: Feb 12, 2015 12:53 PM    Msg. 4 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: stunt_man
...something that Jason Jones said about the H1 pistol: "I added code specifically, when the map was loaded, to change a single number on the pistol"

for the curious:

When building a singleplayer map, tool specifically seeks out weapons/pistol/pistol.weapon, and weapons/pistol/bullet.damage_effect, and changes them before compiling them into the map.

pistol/bullet.damage_effect's damage modifier vs. elite energy shield is reduced from 1.0 to 0.8

pistol/pistol.weapon's error angle upper bound is reduced from 2.0 to 0.4 degrees (this is likely the magic jason jones change). So instead of starting at an 0.2 degree cone and ending at a 2.0 degree cone -- 10 times less accurate -- it merely goes from 0.2 to 0.4. Big change!

You can observe this in action by compiling a singleplayer map yourself with the stock HEK tags, which have the "old" values; looking at the memory while the map's running will reveal these tags to have the newer values, as will looking at them after extracting them from a built map with HEK+. (you can also verify this by just shooting walls with weapons/pistol/pistol.weapon and a clone .weapon located elsewhere)

Here's the fun part though: when building a multiplayer map, tool does nothing. Instead, when h1 xbox loads a multiplayer map, it will change the values as they're being loaded into memory. The kicker? Halo PC doesn't do this. (I've verified this on Custom Edition; I'm 95% sure regular HPC is also like this.) Halo PC multiplayer still uses the old Pistol max error of 2.0 degrees.

So, all along, PC MP players have been using the older, non-JJones-tampered version of the Pistol. Of course, pulling the trigger for every bullet (rather than holding it for automatic fire) completely bypasses the accuracy decrease, apparently by design according to this guy; so practically, the JJones change isn't as significant as it may seem.

Less known but arguably more significant is that plasma rifle/plasma rifle.weapon is also modified in the same way, having its error reduced from 0.5-5.0 degrees to 0.25-2.5 degrees; i.e., the HPC multiplayer PR is effectively half as accurate as its campaign & xbox MP counterpart

(you may resume badposting now)


stunt_man
Joined: Sep 22, 2009

GMYF - Now hosting proper MLG gametypes!


Posted: Feb 12, 2015 04:33 PM    Msg. 5 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Zetren
Lel
Still wishing/pretending Halo 1 to be competitive
Lel


We must have different definitions of competitive gameplay, because I just posted a bunch of objective reasons with citations as to why the game has competitive merit. Care to enlighten me?

Frankly I didn't expect this unfathomable level of ignorance and poisonous posting format to come from the person who meticulously wrote this up: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/3066503/0/0/1, which you certainly did to draw more attention to this game. You know what else draws people to a game and keeps them there? Depth.

Quote: --- Original message by: Ifafudafi
Quote: --- Original message by: stunt_man
...something that Jason Jones said about the H1 pistol: "I added code specifically, when the map was loaded, to change a single number on the pistol"

for the curious:

When building a singleplayer map, tool specifically seeks out weapons/pistol/pistol.weapon, and weapons/pistol/bullet.damage_effect, and changes them before compiling them into the map.

pistol/bullet.damage_effect's damage modifier vs. elite energy shield is reduced from 1.0 to 0.8

pistol/pistol.weapon's error angle upper bound is reduced from 2.0 to 0.4 degrees (this is likely the magic jason jones change). So instead of starting at an 0.2 degree cone and ending at a 2.0 degree cone -- 10 times less accurate -- it merely goes from 0.2 to 0.4. Big change!

You can observe this in action by compiling a singleplayer map yourself with the stock HEK tags, which have the "old" values; looking at the memory while the map's running will reveal these tags to have the newer values, as will looking at them after extracting them from a built map with HEK+. (you can also verify this by just shooting walls with weapons/pistol/pistol.weapon and a clone .weapon located elsewhere)

Here's the fun part though: when building a multiplayer map, tool does nothing. Instead, when h1 xbox loads a multiplayer map, it will change the values as they're being loaded into memory. The kicker? Halo PC doesn't do this. (I've verified this on Custom Edition; I'm 95% sure regular HPC is also like this.) Halo PC multiplayer still uses the old Pistol max error of 2.0 degrees.

So, all along, PC MP players have been using the older, non-JJones-tampered version of the Pistol. Of course, pulling the trigger for every bullet (rather than holding it for automatic fire) completely bypasses the accuracy decrease, apparently by design according to this guy; so practically, the JJones change isn't as significant as it may seem.

Less known but arguably more significant is that plasma rifle/plasma rifle.weapon is also modified in the same way, having its error reduced from 0.5-5.0 degrees to 0.25-2.5 degrees; i.e., the HPC multiplayer PR is effectively half as accurate as its campaign & xbox MP counterpart

(you may resume badposting now)


Thank you very much for this info. I wonder whether this was an oversight (very likely) or some sloppy attempt at trying to rebalance the pistol (unlikely, but not impossible - GBX may have found the pistol to be far too powerful with mouse/keyboard).


Edited by stunt_man on Feb 12, 2015 at 04:45 PM


Ifafudafi
Joined: Jun 23, 2010


Posted: Feb 12, 2015 05:01 PM    Msg. 6 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
So basically if one were to want to use original pistol in SP he would have to rename it and recompile the SP map?

yep


stunt_man
Joined: Sep 22, 2009

GMYF - Now hosting proper MLG gametypes!


Posted: Feb 12, 2015 06:28 PM    Msg. 7 of 20       
To any naysayers that think this game isn't/can't be played competitively, I invite you to watch a mere 5 minutes of this video:

http://youtu.be/azxDjAl5OAc

Then come back here and tell me it's not tuned for high-level play.

I'll fight you.


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Feb 13, 2015 10:12 AM    Msg. 8 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: stunt_man
To any naysayers that think this game isn't/can't be played competitively, I invite you to watch a mere 5 minutes of this video:

http://youtu.be/azxDjAl5OAc

Then come back here and tell me it's not tuned for high-level play.

I'll fight you.

People often say the melee damage effects from haloce need to be improved. I say leave them be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSF9FCl0VCc
Edited by SS Flanker on Feb 13, 2015 at 10:15 AM


Lateksi
Joined: Jan 1, 2010


Posted: Feb 13, 2015 01:38 PM    Msg. 9 of 20       
Halo 1 is far more competitive than it's sequels, that's for sure. Wouldn't talk about perfect weapon balance, though. Plasma rifle for example should have zero spread and ability to deal a bit more damage. Small Stuff like that, and that's only my opinion.

I'm glad someone here watches Missigno, guy rocks. I consider myself OK player but I've lost many games against teams who know the spawns, I never really got off my butt to learn them. And this was before 2009 I think.


StormUndBlackbird
Joined: Oct 27, 2011

https://youtube.com/StormUndBlackbird


Posted: Feb 13, 2015 01:43 PM    Msg. 10 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Lateksi
I consider myself OK player
Y U LIE


stunt_man
Joined: Sep 22, 2009

GMYF - Now hosting proper MLG gametypes!


Posted: Feb 13, 2015 01:53 PM    Msg. 11 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Zetren

I was an ass. I'm sorry. I actually appreciate your OP. Hope to get into it now. Great work compiling the links.

Edited by Zetren on Feb 13, 2015 at 01:20 PM


No hard feelings, you just really triggered me there :/

Quote: --- Original message by: StormUndBlackbird
Quote: --- Original message by: Lateksi
I consider myself OK player
Y U LIE


Because he realized lucky-ass nades =/= skills





:^)
Edited by stunt_man on Feb 13, 2015 at 02:00 PM


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Feb 13, 2015 03:07 PM    Msg. 12 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Lateksi
Halo 1 is far more competitive than it's sequels, that's for sure. Wouldn't talk about perfect weapon balance, though. Plasma rifle for example should have zero spread and ability to deal a bit more damage. Small Stuff like that, and that's only my opinion.

I'm glad someone here watches Missigno, guy rocks. I consider myself OK player but I've lost many games against teams who know the spawns, I never really got off my butt to learn them. And this was before 2009 I think.


PR is pretty beast on Xbox with stun


stunt_man
Joined: Sep 22, 2009

GMYF - Now hosting proper MLG gametypes!


Posted: Feb 17, 2015 06:47 PM    Msg. 13 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Ifafudafi
for the curious:

When building a singleplayer map, tool specifically seeks out weapons/pistol/pistol.weapon, and weapons/pistol/bullet.damage_effect, and changes them before compiling them into the map.

pistol/bullet.damage_effect's damage modifier vs. elite energy shield is reduced from 1.0 to 0.8

pistol/pistol.weapon's error angle upper bound is reduced from 2.0 to 0.4 degrees (this is likely the magic jason jones change). So instead of starting at an 0.2 degree cone and ending at a 2.0 degree cone -- 10 times less accurate -- it merely goes from 0.2 to 0.4. Big change!

You can observe this in action by compiling a singleplayer map yourself with the stock HEK tags, which have the "old" values; looking at the memory while the map's running will reveal these tags to have the newer values, as will looking at them after extracting them from a built map with HEK+. (you can also verify this by just shooting walls with weapons/pistol/pistol.weapon and a clone .weapon located elsewhere)

Here's the fun part though: when building a multiplayer map, tool does nothing. Instead, when h1 xbox loads a multiplayer map, it will change the values as they're being loaded into memory. The kicker? Halo PC doesn't do this. (I've verified this on Custom Edition; I'm 95% sure regular HPC is also like this.) Halo PC multiplayer still uses the old Pistol max error of 2.0 degrees.

So, all along, PC MP players have been using the older, non-JJones-tampered version of the Pistol. Of course, pulling the trigger for every bullet (rather than holding it for automatic fire) completely bypasses the accuracy decrease, apparently by design according to this guy; so practically, the JJones change isn't as significant as it may seem.

Less known but arguably more significant is that plasma rifle/plasma rifle.weapon is also modified in the same way, having its error reduced from 0.5-5.0 degrees to 0.25-2.5 degrees; i.e., the HPC multiplayer PR is effectively half as accurate as its campaign & xbox MP counterpart

(you may resume badposting now)


So I decided to test this out, and here are the results. See below:

(for these tests I fired the pistol semi-automatically aka I didn't just hold the trigger down)

This is from the OG version:


This is from Halo MCC on Xbone:


This is from Halo PC (unaltered):


This is from Halo PC (with the corrections to the settings according to your post):


It appears that vanilla Halo PC's pistol spread is significantly different from the OG Xbox version (in fact, the OG version is the only one with the true pistol spread).

Ifafudafi is correct! MAYBE - upon further testing they all seem identical

We've been using a broken version of the pistol for more than a decade, THANKS GEARBOXThis is incorrect, further testing shows all versions to be identical, new pic coming soon

Here are the tag values for anyone who is working a map that includes the stock pistol: Not necessary

Unaltered:


Altered:


Note that I only tested multiplayer.
Edited by stunt_man on Feb 17, 2015 at 07:20 PM
Edited by stunt_man on Feb 17, 2015 at 08:33 PM
Edited by stunt_man on Feb 17, 2015 at 08:41 PM
Edited by stunt_man on Feb 17, 2015 at 10:16 PM
Edited by stunt_man on Feb 23, 2015 at 08:57 PM


The_Purrminator
Joined: May 30, 2014

(SBB) Michelle


Posted: Feb 18, 2015 04:28 PM    Msg. 14 of 20       

This is my spread on vanilla halo pc, so idk what you were smoking while you held that button down there...
Edited by Maiku3 on Feb 18, 2015 at 04:29 PM


xx_kiLLaz_XX
Joined: Nov 29, 2014

Opensauce 4.0 is finally out!


Posted: Feb 18, 2015 07:55 PM    Msg. 15 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
"Exposed"


Quote: "Broomstick"


HOW DID YOU DO A DOUBLE POST?????????


stunt_man
Joined: Sep 22, 2009

GMYF - Now hosting proper MLG gametypes!


Posted: Feb 18, 2015 10:28 PM    Msg. 16 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Maiku3

http://puu.sh/g2KmJ/8c98b1cb9a.jpg
This is my spread on vanilla halo pc, so idk what you were smoking while you held that button down there...
Edited by Maiku3 on Feb 18, 2015 at 04:29 PM


Yeah that's the semi-automatic spread. I the OG version wrong originally, I made this video comparison since then:

http://youtu.be/dqCyPHW0KIw

The point does remain, though, that after doing Ifafudafi's changes to the tags, the pistol becomes different from the Xbox version. The spreads are actually consistent across all versions.

Ifafudafi: how did you test to find out that the tag values were altered after during compilation/runtime?


Dennis

Joined: Jan 27, 2005

"We are made of starstuff. ― Carl Sagan


Posted: Feb 22, 2015 01:52 PM    Msg. 17 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: xx_kiLLaz_XX
HOW DID YOU DO A DOUBLE POST?????????
He didn't. A spammers were deleted.


Zonda
Joined: Dec 28, 2014

👺


Posted: Feb 23, 2015 02:33 AM    Msg. 18 of 20       
There was certainly a lot of thought put in to the balancing of the maps. It's a shame that so much potential is wasted with most servers nowadays having the max vehicles/infinite grenades gametypes. I've had many fun matches over the years when the clans actually made an effort to host skill-based gametypes. Although I'll admit in all of my plans for MP maps, I focused more on the layout of the map as well as damage balancing, and never gave a thought to the spawn locations and weapon respawn timers.

Thanks, OP. I've bookmarked those pages for later. Definitely some food for thought!


stunt_man
Joined: Sep 22, 2009

GMYF - Now hosting proper MLG gametypes!


Posted: Feb 23, 2015 07:14 PM    Msg. 19 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Zonda
There was certainly a lot of thought put in to the balancing of the maps. It's a shame that so much potential is wasted with most servers nowadays having the max vehicles/infinite grenades gametypes.


It is a shame - but the server hosts aren't necessarily to blame. The OG competitive settings got very little exposure, and since all the pro kids didn't jump to Halo PC (because of the changes made in the port), they never transferred over. What happened instead is the PC community established their own competitive settings with no knowledge of the real meta-game (which you see in most "pro" servers, ex: heavies disabled, powerups disabled, grenades disabled).

Personal opinion: I don't understand the fun in a game where everything is disabled and everyone just uses the pistol, but that's just me.

Quote: --- Original message by: Zetren
Hop on hpc on Halo PC, their server is probably the most balanced I've seen with rox disabled and no stupid mods/starting weapons. Their pass is hpc, which keeps the illiterate and the 12 year old out (which make up the majority of PCs player base) meaning the players usually very good there. Also there's a halo scrim community on xfire who organise skill based matches among themselves, and who use Sehe's anticheat.


I can live with rockets being disabled in a public server (because there are lots of randoms that will join mid-match and won't be timing weapons) but in a private server, I wouldn't dream of it (unless maybe in a 1v1). The reason they're important (along with powerups) is not a question of balance (since both teams theoretically have equal access to all pickups), but one of map movement. In a high-level 2v2 match when both teams are timing the weapon/powerup spawns (there are actually apps for this for iOS/Android), players will actually converge on the locations of the weapons/powerups right beforehand. This means that no one will simply camp out in an advantageous position for very long - because well-designed maps have the good pickups placed in open, vulnerable positions.

Prime example: Hang 'Em High. Top-blue is the place to be. You have eyes on the whole map as well as the high ground. But if you and your teammate stay up there too long, the other team will snatch up rockets and camo and flank you, gaining the power position. And it can go deeper - if they flank you with their rockets and camo and keep one of you alive while staying far enough away from the spawn points, you will likely keep spawning your teammate next to you (lots of spawn points up there) and continuously get spawn-killed until they run out of rockets.

All that being said - scrim servers/communities are the only way to play real high-level Halo (as compared to the OG version, anyway). I'm not saying there aren't good players in public servers that have all the good stuff disabled - you'll still be able to play competitively to an extent - but as far as the meta-game is concerned, it's non-existant in gametypes that have everything disabled.


Kinnet
Joined: Dec 27, 2013

FeelsGoodMan


Posted: Mar 3, 2015 03:30 AM    Msg. 20 of 20       
THANKS ! now i know how add spread to a shotgun !!

 

 
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