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»Forums Index »Halo Custom Edition (Bungie/Gearbox) »Halo CE General Discussion »is it a bad idea to have 2 bsps? in a mp map?

Author Topic: is it a bad idea to have 2 bsps? in a mp map? (21 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: May 23, 2015 10:07 PM    Msg. 1 of 21       
just a idea I had today. it would be cool to have two bsps.
based on game type. can this be done?


kirby_422
Joined: Jan 22, 2006

Apparently public enemy number 1?


Posted: May 23, 2015 11:01 PM    Msg. 2 of 21       
The BSPs have to have collision identical to the other BSP (typically day/night swaps, although as long as the collision is identical in both BSPs, they can have entire different visual areas) unless you are forcing the players to stay together (so, coop type of level).


DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: May 24, 2015 12:29 AM    Msg. 3 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: kirby_422
The BSPs have to have collision identical to the other BSP (typically day/night swaps, although as long as the collision is identical in both BSPs, they can have entire different visual areas) unless you are forcing the players to stay together (so, coop type of level).
lets say I have a bsp i made for slayer then one I made just for CTF and team game types. the bsp will not look the same at all not just textures but the bsp it's self will be drft

Edited by DOOM899 on May 24, 2015 at 12:33 AM


DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: May 24, 2015 10:04 AM    Msg. 4 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh

Aslong as you have spawnpoints for that ctf bsp set on ctf only and you force that bsp to load once the game starts with ctf. During the game the BSP should not be switched.

But if the BSP is completely different, it would be wiser to just have two separate maps.
Edited by Mootjuh on May 24, 2015 at 04:45 AM
this is just a idea.
something im hoping would be good. but what do you think?. what I think it would be better to have two map's. but to have something new\or done a new way may. may be good
.so that map can be played again and again
Edited by DOOM899 on May 24, 2015 at 10:05 AM


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: May 24, 2015 10:39 AM    Msg. 5 of 21       
Speaking from experience this isn't an entirely new innovation.

People have been doing it for ages, in it's simplest form all you really need to do is link to low poly bsp's with there respective skyboxes to 1 frame and export.

The problems arise when ce's engine decides where to loan most of it's power. Usually this is to the bsp containing the most players at any given time.

Ie.


BSP1 (12 PLAYERS)

> teleporter <

BSP2 (4 PLAYERS)

Since BSP1 has 12 players located in the level the engines concentration/ rendering/ error checking / meta data feedback is focused more here then it is on BSP2.


Cons:

Prone to: Phantom collisions.
Sound culling. This affects looping sounds. Rare depending on there hierachy/importance.
Teleporter lag, especially with bsp which are not portalled.
Exact portal weather definition does not seem to work correctly either.
Occasional particles will not draw



To avoid these errors I recommend joining the skybox of bsp 1 to bsp 2. Effectively making them 1 whole bsp with seperate elements.

And if your worried about players abusing the spot where bsp1 and bsp2 are joined you could add player clipping geometry to avoid wall porting and other such bugs.
Edited by SS Flanker on May 24, 2015 at 10:43 AM
Edited by SS Flanker on May 24, 2015 at 12:27 PM


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: May 24, 2015 11:20 AM    Msg. 6 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
What I think could work is BSP LoDs using BSP switches. Only the area you are in is detailed while the one further away is less detailed.


I concur. I only wish however we could create BSP collision separately. :(


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: May 24, 2015 01:07 PM    Msg. 7 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
You can. Just make the render geometry materials render-only. Make collision geometry and give them the collision-only prefix in the materials.


Phantom collision still pops up tho :(

Btw if you merge completely sealed objects into one another (Cube inside half another cube) and then export your bsp it runs through tool fine. (yes you get errors but it compiles fine)

Again when you interact with the merge points exceptions are usually drawn out, that or more phantom weirdness!

You have really good idea mootjuh btw. Publish your brain into a pdf or something.


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: May 26, 2015 03:06 PM    Msg. 8 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
Just fix the collision BSP, have the collision and render geometry be separate objects and both linked to the frame.
And my CE knowledge is minimal.


Eloquent, smart, sexy and humble no less.

It is a pity you are waffles's waifu.


R93_Sniper
Joined: Feb 13, 2011

When in Doubt, RUN!


Posted: May 26, 2015 09:32 PM    Msg. 9 of 21       
I thought he was vampire girl's waifu


Twinreaper
Joined: Jun 5, 2010


Posted: May 27, 2015 07:49 PM    Msg. 10 of 21       
It's been a long time since I did anything CE related, bit I can't help but ask. How does CE handle bsp loading? Can it force the loading of two seperate bsp's at one time?

I only ask this since the successor versions of Blam! in Halo Reach and 4 actually force load multiple bsp's. There are seperate bsp's for the geometry in the distance albeit those instances do not have a collision model that point/plane/face accurate.


Maniac1000
-Helpful Poster-
Joined: Feb 24, 2007


Posted: May 28, 2015 01:16 AM    Msg. 11 of 21       
Have the 2 bsps sealed and with +sky geometrys. Use 3ds max attach tool to make them 1 object. Link and export. Make the spawn points specific to each bsp.
Also make sure to portal.


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: May 28, 2015 10:44 AM    Msg. 12 of 21       
/\ What maniac said but don't push the bsp past 5,500k tris otherwise you may encounters BSP3D depth errors. (Too much collision for halo to cope with)

You could circumvent this by a applying a technique mootjuh told me a thread or four ago, which would be to create your initial BSP but add a "render only" shader symbol material in your 3d packages Material placer/editor.

From there you would have to create separate collision for both of your bsp's. (Note the collision geometry should be significantly lower in detail and accuracy to the "render only" structure)

And just don't forget to add the "render collision" only material to the structure you intend to act only as collision.


DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: May 31, 2015 11:24 PM    Msg. 13 of 21       
[soooo] it seem's like a bad idea ok thanks for saying ;}


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Jun 1, 2015 05:17 AM    Msg. 14 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: DOOM899
[soooo] it seem's like a bad idea ok thanks for saying ;}


I didn't state that it would be a 'bad idea', I simply suggested that you would need to understand and put in place certain measure and techniques to make sure you would not over load halo's engine.

The easiest practice to go by would simply making sure that both BSP's exceed no more than 6,000k tris.


DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: Jun 2, 2015 12:43 AM    Msg. 15 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: SS Flanker
Quote: --- Original message by: DOOM899
[soooo] it seem's like a bad idea ok thanks for saying ;}


I didn't state that it would be a 'bad idea', I simply suggested that you would need to understand and put in place certain measure and techniques to make sure you would not over load halo's engine.

The easiest practice to go by would simply making sure that both BSP's exceed no more than 6,000k tris.
ok would 2000k work? im going to make a map and test this idea but will there be someone willing to test it. just asking?


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Jun 2, 2015 03:48 AM    Msg. 16 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: DOOM899
Quote: --- Original message by: SS Flanker
Quote: --- Original message by: DOOM899
[soooo] it seem's like a bad idea ok thanks for saying ;}


I didn't state that it would be a 'bad idea', I simply suggested that you would need to understand and put in place certain measure and techniques to make sure you would not over load halo's engine.

The easiest practice to go by would simply making sure that both BSP's exceed no more than 6,000k tris.
ok would 2000k work? im going to make a map and test this idea but will there be someone willing to test it. just asking?


According to mathsism 2k is 4 less than 6k, so yes.

Just post a link in this thread or send the map to sbb xander.


Kal_El
Joined: Feb 4, 2015


Posted: Jun 3, 2015 11:42 AM    Msg. 17 of 21       
is he talking about doing something like this?

http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=3636

Kal


OpsY
Joined: Feb 19, 2007

Frobisher Bay


Posted: Jun 4, 2015 03:36 PM    Msg. 18 of 21       
Actually, IIRC if you want 2 BSPs for totally different purpose, it can pretty much be done. We had tested it while working on Sanctuary_Final and RPG_Beta6.2. Our initial results were horrible, we truly broke Halo in many places doing these trials but one method actually worked; actually, two. One was for Weather control, which involves different BSPs.

The second, basically, to rid of all collision and out of sync BSPs Issue we created 2 very, very different BSPs but each had a "Spawn box" Exactly in the same spot, same size. Whatever the active BSP was, you would spawn there and then the in game script would teleport you to the actual map, based on what the Host had decided. Same thing, when moving from one BSP to the other everyone would be transferred to safe, spawn box, BSP Switch, then teleported to new BSP.

Timing is really important here. If you do not allow sufficient delay between steps you can create some very weird errors, some affecting player movements, cameras, net game, all kind of fun, sometimes slightly playable, but very exception prone glitches. If timing is right though, it can be almost seemless and endless pleasure guaranteed :P


altis94
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

What doesn't ban me makes me stronger


Posted: Jun 4, 2015 03:39 PM    Msg. 19 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: OpsY
endless pleasure guaranteed :P

( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Jun 5, 2015 04:52 AM    Msg. 20 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mootjuh
Quote: --- Original message by: SS Flanker
Quote: --- Original message by: DOOM899
[soooo] it seem's like a bad idea ok thanks for saying ;}


I didn't state that it would be a 'bad idea', I simply suggested that you would need to understand and put in place certain measure and techniques to make sure you would not over load halo's engine.

The easiest practice to go by would simply making sure that both BSP's exceed no more than 6,000k tris.


That's 600.000 triangles. I think you mean 16k, 16.000 triangles.


Should have left out the zero's o.o!


DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: Jun 16, 2015 12:54 AM    Msg. 21 of 21       
Quote: --- Original message by: OpsY
Actually, IIRC if you want 2 BSPs for totally different purpose, it can pretty much be done. We had tested it while working on Sanctuary_Final and RPG_Beta6.2. Our initial results were horrible, we truly broke Halo in many places doing these trials but one method actually worked; actually, two. One was for Weather control, which involves different BSPs.

The second, basically, to rid of all collision and out of sync BSPs Issue we created 2 very, very different BSPs but each had a "Spawn box" Exactly in the same spot, same size. Whatever the active BSP was, you would spawn there and then the in game script would teleport you to the actual map, based on what the Host had decided. Same thing, when moving from one BSP to the other everyone would be transferred to safe, spawn box, BSP Switch, then teleported to new BSP.

Timing is really important here. If you do not allow sufficient delay between steps you can create some very weird errors, some affecting player movements, cameras, net game, all kind of fun, sometimes slightly playable, but very exception prone glitches. If timing is right though, it can be almost seemless and endless pleasure guaranteed :P
im using os tho so maybe I can do one better.. but thanks for the info

 

 
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