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Author Topic: A Little History (33 messages, Page 1 of 1)
Moderators: Dennis

addicted2halo
Joined: Apr 24, 2007

Depression Hurts. Guns Kill.


Posted: Dec 17, 2016 07:30 PM    Msg. 1 of 33       
Hey guys! Yikes it's been a while since I've posted on here.

So listen: I know "Search is your friend" and all but I'm coming up a little short. I'm writing a research paper about Halo Custom Edition for a college course at Temple University, and I'm supposed to write about the game's development. I realize that the credits are in the game, and I've utilized them to come up with a list of some of the important people on the design and production teams, but my issue is: I can't really find anything about what specifically makes Halo PC different from Halo CE. In other words, why can we play Halo Maps on Halo CE but not on PC? Is it just coded differently? Or is there something else? Also, is there a difference between the "Halo for PC" team and the Halo Custom Edition team?

Figured this community might be able to help me out. Thanks guys!


Pepzee
Joined: Sep 9, 2010

All work and no play.


Posted: Dec 17, 2016 07:45 PM    Msg. 2 of 33       
Halo Custom Edition is completely different than regular Halo PC. Gearbox did some major modifications to it, however I do not know what those modifications were.

As an example I do not believe any of the Halo PC maps would work if put in the Halo CE maps folder.

I believe Halo Custom Edition was only made by Gearbox, while the PC version was also made by Bungie and Microsoft. I'm sure the development teams were somewhat different.


DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: Dec 17, 2016 07:48 PM    Msg. 3 of 33       
what you could call halo ce is something like halo 2.

didn't halo ce come out in 2004? then halo[1] in 2001


addicted2halo
Joined: Apr 24, 2007

Depression Hurts. Guns Kill.


Posted: Dec 17, 2016 07:50 PM    Msg. 4 of 33       
Okay, well thank you very much for your help! I did read that it was Gearbox who programmed it for PC, though I do know that Microsoft helped a little bit as far as distribution. I really appreciate it man.


Pepzee
Joined: Sep 9, 2010

All work and no play.


Posted: Dec 17, 2016 07:59 PM    Msg. 5 of 33       
Another point of information can be found here:

http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=47046&start=15

Dennis might know more if you ask him.


addicted2halo
Joined: Apr 24, 2007

Depression Hurts. Guns Kill.


Posted: Dec 17, 2016 08:09 PM    Msg. 6 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Pepzee
Another point of information can be found here:

http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=47046&start=15

Dennis might know more if you ask him.


You rock man! I may actually end up asking him some questions as they come up. For now, I think I'm good.


Nertez
Joined: Dec 14, 2016

🤔🤔🤔


Posted: Dec 17, 2016 08:37 PM    Msg. 7 of 33       
Don't bother PMing Dennis, just don't.

If you want to write a killer paper I'd recommend contacting some of the more experienced and less ornery members. Masterz1337, sparky (comes with free Jesus), Btcc22 and 002 come to mind; though you're likely just better off posting in a public forum like http://opencarnage.net/, where I guarantee you'll get vastly more genial and informative answers to your questions.


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 12:58 AM    Msg. 8 of 33       
When halo pc came out the majority of computers were still 56k. The netcode for hpc was crap to accompdate this, Halo Custom had an improved netcode. It took full advantage of the engine by utilizing internal bitmaps, for one. While fully functioning in Halo PC, it was never used within the maps.

Halo PC and Halo CE maps are nearly identical, they have a different header and reference some tags differently however and so cannot be interchanged.

The Halo Custom engine had to account for the provided mod toolset; one concern was cheating. As such, Halo CE maps do a checksum comparison of the host and server to ensure the maps match. PC does no such check and as such, PC servers can run a different version of the map than the client (for example, server map has scripts whereas client does not).

Off the top of my head thats what Ive got for you


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 04:20 AM    Msg. 9 of 33       
What's with all the Dennis hate? > We chat all the time, providing you are polite and not a obvious suck up.


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 06:07 AM    Msg. 10 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Pepzee

I believe Halo Custom Edition was only made by Gearbox, while the PC version was also made by Bungie and Microsoft. I'm sure the development teams were somewhat different.


They were all made by gearbox, but CE was an unsupported release by gearbox, done with Bungie and MS permission.


Basically, when Halo PC came out gearbox was mandated to fit it on a cd rom, compared to a dvd like the xbox version. It was also mandated that it work on 56k, requiring gearbox to toss out their original netcode designed for broadband and ushering in the lead laggy crapshot of netcode we all know and love today.

To fit Halo onto a disc, the shared map files were created (bitmaps, loc, sounds.map) as a way to stop redundant data from being printed onto the disc. To the best of my knowledge, no PC map ships with any internal bitmaps, sounds or strings with possibly the exception of lightmaps. They still however CAN contain internal bitmaps if any of you ever rebuilt a map with older modding tools.

With Halo CE, they redesigned the map file system so that maps could internalize more of their data, for things like custom bitmaps, sounds and while not something they saw happening, strings. Halo CE maps can still draw off their shared resource file data, but also can include their own.

One of the cool things about Halo PC's system is that you could make universal changes to the whole game, leading to things like this for every map:



Halo CE also included support for "fast shaders" that were said to increase performance compared to PC (I remember there being doubt if they did, and that some reported worse performance). Halo CE also DID make changes to the netcode, which created "less lag" by making the lag less consistent, so some people could see the amount they had to lead constantly change in a match. Gearbox did at one point promise to update the netcode and give us a patch to CE if we ever got over 1,000 players on at a time, which was a goal of many map teams back in they day, Halo 2 CE team and CMT especially.

Interestingly, the reason it had to be called Custom Edition (CE) was due to some rights or trademark technicality, which pissed off lots of people back when it came out because everyone assumed Halo CE was combat evolved, and hurt awareness of the game as Custom edition was the third "CE" out there now.
Edited by Masters1337 on Dec 18, 2016 at 06:09 AM


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 09:57 AM    Msg. 11 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

They were all made by gearbox, but CE was an unsupported release by gearbox, one with Bungie and MS permission.




Would you know if it was bungie or microsoft that stripped the HEK? I cant imagine Gearbox was given a broken toolset to port the game.

And I cant imagine theyd truncate it themselves if they were the ones who wanted to release it.

My money is on MS of course, but im curious if you can confirm any info on why HEK was stripped.
Edited by DeadHamster on Dec 18, 2016 at 09:57 AM


OrangeJuice
Joined: Jan 29, 2009

I laugh at people who put STUDIOS in their name.


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 01:52 PM    Msg. 12 of 33       
Nah,
Bungie was compiling things into their maps by hand and have stated once or twice that they'dve loved something like the HEK or even tool's error finding. So the HEK must've been gearbox's work maybe.

And most of the broken shaders were probably a product of directX still being hella proprietary back then, requiring two separate paths just to support ATI and Nvidia's dumb custom extensions. Some evidence about that is mentioned in the Splinter Cell Lighting and Shadow Fix. The old math used to calculate those was different from the way direct3D itself handles it. A lot of other stuff adds up to be a ton of problems with porting an Xbox game when Xboxes used a custom version of directX based off of 8.0 alpha that was able to draw things that weren't easy to do until directX 9
Edited by OrangeJuice on Dec 18, 2016 at 02:05 PM


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 03:04 PM    Msg. 13 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: OrangeJuice

Nah,
Bungie was compiling things into their maps by hand and have stated once or twice that they'dve loved something like the HEK or even tool's error finding. So the HEK must've been gearbox's work maybe.

Edited by OrangeJuice on Dec 18, 2016 at 02:05 PM



Wat.



You're telling me Bungie didn't have an editing kit for the game? No way did Gearbox develop Sapien Guerilla and Tool to build Timberland and Gephyrophobia.

I'd believe it if I heard a second voice, but I have found nothing through Google and find it unfathomable that they tagged everything by hand, from Recorded Animations through Weapon Tags through shader modifications.

If you're saying they had their own toolset, that was not nearly as good as the HEK, that I could believe. But even that seems very unlikely to me. Why would Gearbox add support for things they wouldn't be modifying; if you're porting a game you tailor the engine to the existing maps, not the other way.


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 05:40 PM    Msg. 14 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: DeadHamster

Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

They were all made by gearbox, but CE was an unsupported release by gearbox, one with Bungie and MS permission.




Would you know if it was bungie or microsoft that stripped the HEK? I cant imagine Gearbox was given a broken toolset to port the game.

And I cant imagine theyd truncate it themselves if they were the ones who wanted to release it.

My money is on MS of course, but im curious if you can confirm any info on why HEK was stripped.
Edited by DeadHamster on Dec 18, 2016 at 09:57 AM


I am not certain anything was "stripped". Things were locked down but idk if that was always the way it was to stop people from messing with things even inside bungie. Things like recorded animations are actually in the tools, the problem is adding input as you CAN make an RA.... just not with motion in it.

If you are asking about H2EK I have heard it was the people at Bungie who are responsible for that, as there was a fear that content created with it couldn't be controlled and could damage the series reputation, especially with the peer to peer map file transfers.


Quote: --- Original message by: OrangeJuice

Nah,
Bungie was compiling things into their maps by hand and have stated once or twice that they'dve loved something like the HEK or even tool's error finding. So the HEK must've been gearbox's work maybe.

And most of the broken shaders were probably a product of directX still being hella proprietary back then, requiring two separate paths just to support ATI and Nvidia's dumb custom extensions. Some evidence about that is mentioned in the Splinter Cell Lighting and Shadow Fix. The old math used to calculate those was different from the way direct3D itself handles it. A lot of other stuff adds up to be a ton of problems with porting an Xbox game when Xboxes used a custom version of directX based off of 8.0 alpha that was able to draw things that weren't easy to do until directX 9
Edited by OrangeJuice on Dec 18, 2016 at 02:05 PM


This is the first I am hearing about that... they used the same tools we do. There are things that they had to do by hand in engine for things like the needle supercombine count, how often ai dialog combat would be triggered, colors for the multiplayer bipeds... etc. I've literally sat with some of the tool designers from H1 and seen them fiddle with sapien, they were saying how looking at debug.txt brought back memories and confirmed to me that it seemed that the controller input for sapien was busted hence the lack of ability to make Recorded Animations.
Edited by Masters1337 on Dec 18, 2016 at 05:45 PM


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 06:12 PM    Msg. 15 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

I am not certain anything was "stripped". Things were locked down but idk if that was always the way it was to stop people from messing with things even inside bungie. Things like recorded animations are actually in the tools, the problem is adding input as you CAN make an RA.... just not with motion in it.

If you are asking about H2EK I have heard it was the people at Bungie who are responsible for that, as there was a fear that content created with it couldn't be controlled and could damage the series reputation, especially with the peer to peer map file transfers.


I could see the parts that were "locked down" being the same at bungie as well. When I say stripped, I refer to tag fields not being editable and things like RA and lightmap painting not functioning within Sapien.

The more I think on it the more I think it more likely those fields were never enabled even for Bungie. The majority of those fields were just data from compiled resources (I.E., the vertex location for .gbxmodel files.)





Hey Master, on that point what of .gbxmodel files? Why are they gearbox models, did bungie use a different format for the Xbox?





As for H2EK, yeah I assumed with Halo 2 having blown up and with cheating over Xbox LIVE being an issue at the time that it was to prevent cheating and to preserve their multiplayer experience as intended.


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 06:56 PM    Msg. 16 of 33       
What tag fields not being editable are you talking about? Like I said, Recorded animations do work but it's a problem getting input detected. I do wonder if anyone has tried using an original xbox controller to see if it can be detected... but idk. As far as lightmap painting, I did ask them about it but I don't remember what they said. In all honesty, that would be super easy to get working again for whoever wrote that real time editor program, just would have to read sapien's memory and not the games. I think that was why I didn't talk at lengths about it.

I'm not an expert on how the data is stored, but I believe it has to do with the different ways all models are stored on PC and xbox. even though BSP's have the same tag extension, they are different. You can't rip a xbox bsp and throw it into PC or CE. They weren't recompiled though, they were run through some kind of converter to parse the data. If you try to run lightmaps on d20_start you'll see it now reports an exception, I guess that's the only BSP that didn't make it through clean.

I think with H2V it was more of a concern of someone using copyrighted content, pornographic or obscene and them not having a way to stop that content from being distributed through their game. These were the executives at bungie making these calls, not the creatives. In fact many at Bungie (including old H1 team) aren't even aware that the tools are out there. Halo 2's development was hell for them and many weren't even aware of what was going on with the PC port.


edit: also I should add that the source control feature in guerilla was so terrible they never really used it.
Edited by Masters1337 on Dec 18, 2016 at 07:13 PM


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 07:47 PM    Msg. 17 of 33       
I was referring to the fields that Kornman opened compared to stock HEK.


For example, in an sbsp tag in kornman00V2 I can change the shaders individual surfaces use. This cannot be done with guerilla. This, however, really shouldnt be edited in guerilla. It should be edited in 3ds max, rexported and recompiled. Thus I would understand if bungie had it blocked in guerilla as well.


Kornman's ahobo also fixed lightmap editing IIRC.


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Dec 18, 2016 08:50 PM    Msg. 18 of 33       
Those I just believe were closed off because they didn't want even their own employees messing with them. I know you can edit the lightmaps in ahobo/os_sapien, but you can't save.


OrangeJuice
Joined: Jan 29, 2009

I laugh at people who put STUDIOS in their name.


Posted: Dec 19, 2016 05:45 PM    Msg. 19 of 33       
dead link.

And that's why they're called gbxmodels and why tool was nice at the time

Edit: unless it's the wrong dead link. I don't have a habit of naming bookmarks after saving them
Edited by OrangeJuice on Dec 19, 2016 at 05:49 PM


Pepzee
Joined: Sep 9, 2010

All work and no play.


Posted: Dec 20, 2016 12:01 AM    Msg. 20 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: OrangeJuice

dead link.


Alive link.


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Dec 20, 2016 12:22 AM    Msg. 21 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: OrangeJuice

dead link.

And that's why they're called gbxmodels and why tool was nice at the time

Edit: unless it's the wrong dead link. I don't have a habit of naming bookmarks after saving them
Edited by OrangeJuice on Dec 19, 2016 at 05:49 PM



Must be the wrong thread. That post is about the netcode exclusively and says nothing of the HEK. Ive seen that post many times before.


lolslayer
Joined: Mar 21, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMHbAKvPJkU


Posted: Dec 20, 2016 01:09 PM    Msg. 22 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Halo CE also DID make changes to the netcode, which created "less lag" by making the lag less consistent, so some people could see the amount they had to lead constantly change in a match. Gearbox did at one point promise to update the netcode and give us a patch to CE if we ever got over 1,000 players on at a time, which was a goal of many map teams back in they day, Halo 2 CE team and CMT especially.


Haven't we got over 1,000 players on at the same time for long ago?
Edited by lolslayer on Dec 20, 2016 at 01:09 PM


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Dec 20, 2016 01:59 PM    Msg. 23 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: lolslayer

Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Halo CE also DID make changes to the netcode, which created "less lag" by making the lag less consistent, so some people could see the amount they had to lead constantly change in a match. Gearbox did at one point promise to update the netcode and give us a patch to CE if we ever got over 1,000 players on at a time, which was a goal of many map teams back in they day, Halo 2 CE team and CMT especially.


Haven't we got over 1,000 players on at the same time for long ago?
Edited by lolslayer on Dec 20, 2016 at 01:09 PM


At one point perhaps but I it may have been a point too late.

If we can assemble 1000 more players. Provide proof that they aren't bots and then submit a petition from that site everyone seems obligated to use.

We might just have a chance.
Edited by Super Flanker on Dec 20, 2016 at 02:51 PM


P3
Joined: Dec 2, 2011


Posted: Dec 20, 2016 07:08 PM    Msg. 24 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

Edited by Masters1337 on Dec 18, 2016 at 06:09 AM

____

Captain Keyes



DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: Dec 21, 2016 09:07 AM    Msg. 25 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: lolslayer

Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Halo CE also DID make changes to the netcode, which created "less lag" by making the lag less consistent, so some people could see the amount they had to lead constantly change in a match. Gearbox did at one point promise to update the netcode and give us a patch to CE if we ever got over 1,000 players on at a time, which was a goal of many map teams back in they day, Halo 2 CE team and CMT especially.


Haven't we got over 1,000 players on at the same time for long ago?
Edited by lolslayer on Dec 20, 2016 at 01:09 PM
was it lest weekend, had 800 severs 1.500 players, even before I joined halo ce maps we had a lot of players like 6000, back then tho

today we have 1080 players with out hac2, just saying
Edited by DOOM899 on Dec 21, 2016 at 05:30 PM


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Dec 21, 2016 07:20 PM    Msg. 26 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: DOOM899

Quote: --- Original message by: lolslayer

Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Halo CE also DID make changes to the netcode, which created "less lag" by making the lag less consistent, so some people could see the amount they had to lead constantly change in a match. Gearbox did at one point promise to update the netcode and give us a patch to CE if we ever got over 1,000 players on at a time, which was a goal of many map teams back in they day, Halo 2 CE team and CMT especially.


Haven't we got over 1,000 players on at the same time for long ago?
Edited by lolslayer on Dec 20, 2016 at 01:09 PM
was it lest weekend, had 800 severs 1.500 players, even before I joined halo ce maps we had a lot of players like 6000, back then tho

today we have 1080 players with out hac2, just saying
Edited by DOOM899 on Dec 21, 2016 at 05:30 PM


Where be yer proof scummy aussie?


DOOM899
Joined: Jul 23, 2013

{DM} [gamesmaster] if i can ill help maybe


Posted: Dec 21, 2016 07:35 PM    Msg. 27 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Super Flanker
Quote: --- Original message by: DOOM899

Quote: --- Original message by: lolslayer

Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Halo CE also DID make changes to the netcode, which created "less lag" by making the lag less consistent, so some people could see the amount they had to lead constantly change in a match. Gearbox did at one point promise to update the netcode and give us a patch to CE if we ever got over 1,000 players on at a time, which was a goal of many map teams back in they day, Halo 2 CE team and CMT especially.


Haven't we got over 1,000 players on at the same time for long ago?
Edited by lolslayer on Dec 20, 2016 at 01:09 PM
was it lest weekend, had 800 severs 1.500 players, even before I joined halo ce maps we had a lot of players like 6000, back then tho

today we have 1080 players with out hac2, just saying
Edited by DOOM899 on Dec 21, 2016 at 05:30 PM


Where be yer proof scummy aussie?




there's my proof

and that's without hac2
Edited by DOOM899 on Dec 21, 2016 at 07:37 PM


MEGA_VKNG
Joined: Dec 23, 2013

Now retired from CE, enjoy DW! https://goo.gl/1Bup


Posted: Dec 30, 2016 06:35 AM    Msg. 28 of 33       
1.500 people?

I feel bad for that half person, his dying wish should be to play a better game.


gruntfromhalo
Joined: Nov 21, 2007

actual loli


Posted: Jan 15, 2017 02:03 AM    Msg. 29 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: Super Flanker
What's with all the Dennis hate? > We chat all the time, providing you are polite and not a obvious suck up.
dennis is great dennis is the best


xnx
Joined: Feb 12, 2013

h2 marine anims or i detonate the vest


Posted: Jan 15, 2017 05:06 AM    Msg. 30 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: DeadHamster
The Halo Custom engine had to account for the provided mod toolset; one concern was cheating. As such, Halo CE maps do a checksum comparison of the host and server to ensure the maps match. PC does no such check and as such, PC servers can run a different version of the map than the client (for example, server map has scripts whereas client does not).

Off the top of my head thats what Ive got for you


Ack that was the best part about modding Halo PC, Mac and Halo Demo. I used to host a slightly modded bloodgulch server that would make simple changes like moving weapon and vehicle spawns which would get players interested and joining the server especially since they didn't have to download a map. Then once the server was full of 16 players I'd switch the bloodgulch.map during the scoreboard intermission. I'd swap it to another bloodgulch map I named "junk.map" which totally screwed up the game for everyone on the server- everyone would spawn with a rocket launcher that shot backwards, the sniper had a 100 round clip with like 45 degrees of spread but 10 instantaneous acceleration, the pistol would spawn spartan bipeds, the shade turret could fly and drop grenades, and accidentally pressing the flashlight button would result in a huge suicide explosion. I have like three year old videos of players spawning into this shtshow totally clueless and confused and watching chaos ensue. It was THE BEST


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Jan 15, 2017 09:00 AM    Msg. 31 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: xnx
I used to host a slightly modded bloodgulch server that would make simple changes like moving weapon and vehicle spawns which would get players interested and joining the server especially since they didn't have to download a map. Then once the server was full of 16 players I'd switch the bloodgulch.map during the scoreboard intermission. I'd swap it to another bloodgulch map I named "junk.map" which totally screwed up the game for everyone on the server- everyone T




gruntfromhalo
Joined: Nov 21, 2007

actual loli


Posted: Jan 15, 2017 04:42 PM    Msg. 32 of 33       
Quote: --- Original message by: P3
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Edited by Masters1337 on Dec 18, 2016 at 06:09 AM

____

Captain Keyes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/107/395/Thatface20110725-22047-wlaopv.png
pleas go back to r9k and never come back okay


Bugnotnotthegreat
Joined: Nov 6, 2016

Big smoke. Remember that name.


Posted: Mar 4, 2017 04:28 AM    Msg. 33 of 33       
Can I get a link to the cell shaded Halo?
Edited by Bugnotnotthegreat on Mar 4, 2017 at 04:31 AM

 

 
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