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»Forums Index »Halo Custom Edition (Bungie/Gearbox) »Halo CE General Discussion »[PUBLIC BETA]: Dissolution

Author Topic: [PUBLIC BETA]: Dissolution (29 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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Ganon
Joined: Dec 5, 2009

www.gaybrosfromouterspace.com


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 04:34 PM    Msg. 1 of 29       
I'm back after an 8 year vacation to get my nostalgia fix. Part of that fix ended up being making a map, and in my case, the first I am proud of. I am not very experienced or talented using max and the HEK, but I know my way around. My main goal here was to create a map where gameplay is the top design priority, and visuals are intended to reflect the quirky flaws of the stock maps. Much of this map was created piecing together some of my favorite parts of Halo's stock maps into a "supermap" and acts as a spiritual remake to Sidewinder if anything. The design involved condensing the real estate and "no man's land" of the stock maps to deliver a more action packed experience. At the moment, the map is only playable on CTF and slayer, CTF being the primary gametype in mind when I designed it. Much like the name of the thread suggests, I want you guys to try to break my map and critique it from all standpoints. Please let me know any suggestions you have and I will happily discuss their merit!

DL Link: http://www.filedropper.com/dissolution_2

Mandatory Pics:










Alex
Joined: Apr 22, 2016

Operation Spearhead is cancelled


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 05:02 PM    Msg. 2 of 29       
Really good map, Keep up the good work!
Edited by Grand Admiral Alex on Jan 2, 2017 at 05:03 PM


Higuy
Joined: Mar 6, 2007

@lucasgovatos


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 05:16 PM    Msg. 3 of 29       
Looks fantastic dude. Someone needs to put this up on a dedicated server so we can play!


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 05:23 PM    Msg. 4 of 29       
Looks pretty cool, I like the sidewinder vibes from it.

There is another map called Dissolution out there though, so you may want to rename it before final release.


R93_Sniper
Joined: Feb 13, 2011

When in Doubt, RUN!


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 05:24 PM    Msg. 5 of 29       
was gonna say that, guess masterz beat me to it. Looks good, but think you could post a top-down view of the map? Would be nice to see what the layout is


Ganon
Joined: Dec 5, 2009

www.gaybrosfromouterspace.com


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 05:43 PM    Msg. 6 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: R93_Sniper
was gonna say that, guess masterz beat me to it. Looks good, but think you could post a top-down view of the map? Would be nice to see what the layout is


  


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 06:21 PM    Msg. 7 of 29       
Gorgeous and reminiscent of the game.


Halo Noob Modder117
Joined: Jan 22, 2016

I'm a sexy alt. account- Halo Maps Community 2017.


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 06:50 PM    Msg. 8 of 29       
Looks like an awesome mash-up of Gephyrophobia, Ice Fields and Sidewinder. Nice.


Spartan314
Joined: Aug 21, 2010

Former biped rigger & FP animator


Posted: Jan 2, 2017 08:37 PM    Msg. 9 of 29       
Mmmm I can dig this.


Slap Happy
Joined: Feb 2, 2009

Life ain't fair, buy a helmet.


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 12:27 AM    Msg. 10 of 29       
Love it.

Please DO:

Complete RACE, ODDBALL, KING gametypes setup.

Race: 1st nav on the bridge, then circle each base, then back to bridge for lap.

Tall Pines: consider staggering the trees, or have a few less. (most are paired, apart from each other) From a driver or gunner position in a hog, it is congested - blocked views.



Edited by Slap Happy on Jan 3, 2017 at 12:32 AM


mihirgates
Joined: Sep 6, 2014

https://youtube.com/mihirgates


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 04:53 AM    Msg. 11 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Looks pretty cool, I like the sidewinder vibes from it.

There is another map called Dissolution out there though, so you may want to rename it before final release.


Just searched for Dissolution on Halomaps and HAC 2 Maplist, found "cmt_v2_dissolution" or "dissolusion_classic" not the same map name... so no worries >:v
Edited by mihirgates on Jan 3, 2017 at 04:54 AM


altis94
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

What doesn't ban me makes me stronger


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 09:23 AM    Msg. 12 of 29       
Haven't played the map much so can't really give much feedback. It seems like you're using wrong shader for ice because it's not reflective. The longer side enterance to the base could use a little bit more cover while still allowing warthogs to go through it.


sanni
Joined: Aug 11, 2011

cake <3


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 10:34 AM    Msg. 13 of 29       
Hey there
If you wanna play this sometime in a relaxed but ever so slightly competitive setting, we play every Sunday at 7PM GMT and we love to try out new maps just visit us on server.

Also I'd like to share my thoughts on this first version.
Please do not take this as critique as I can be too direct sometimes. I really like your map. Furthermore I don't expect you to follow any of my ideas because you ofc have your own vision but maybe it will still help you in any way, shape or form.



direct copy is way too boring, maybe replace the pillars with bottomless pits where you need to jump over and replace the tunnel design by some sort of ice cave design like on Icefields to give it some variation

this is already a flaw in the original sidewinder, it's too much of a bottleneck and hurts gameflow, maybe replace it by just one big straight tunnel entrance

remove this part and pay tribute to it on the upper level

the base pops up to quickly and you can't drive past it in a hog, maybe move the ice a little and shave off a little bit of the rock so that you can do driveby's in a hog without crashing into the vehicles that spawn at base

remove this part, just compare the capping process on Sidewinder to Timberland, it's so much nicer to cap on Timberland, also less spawn kills, again the Sidewinder design creates a bottleneck

Make the walkways just a little bit wider, Halo is a laggy game and people tend to fall off

Also as a general note, make sure that you can drive through the map in a hog without bumping against small rocks all the time. There are a few places where less small rocks would make the map better, especially with the collision lag that is haunting Halo online games.
Edited by sanni on Jan 3, 2017 at 10:38 AM


TG Bun
Joined: Nov 9, 2016


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 11:09 AM    Msg. 14 of 29       
Great map Ganon, I agree with sanni about tweaking it a little but overall I like it a lot, it inject's a bit more longevity into HaloCe for the players that are left <3



Ganon
Joined: Dec 5, 2009

www.gaybrosfromouterspace.com


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 12:00 PM    Msg. 15 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: Slap Happy
Please DO:

Complete RACE, ODDBALL, KING gametypes setup.

Race: 1st nav on the bridge, then circle each base, then back to bridge for lap.
Edited by Slap Happy on Jan 3, 2017 at 12:32 AM


I will be adding this exactly as you described in the final release.


Quote: --- Original message by: sanni
Please do not take this as critique as I can be too direct sometimes. I really like your map.


Thanks man, if yall play this on Sunday, I'll try to show up.

Quote: this is already a flaw in the original sidewinder, it's too much of a bottleneck and hurts gameflow, maybe replace it by just one big straight tunnel entrance


This section was already restructured to be more symmetrical than the original Sidewinder. The bottleneck serves to increase travel timings and create a "safe" area for foot traffic.

Quote: remove this part and pay tribute to it on the upper level


I'm not sure how to incorporate this in any other part of the map unless I made a second entrance near the bases leading to it, much like OS cave in Bloodgulch. Really the area serves as a way to make getting into the opposing base easier by giving both powerups and to punish the opposing team by nading them away into the pit. Flag toss strategies also make for great comeback games in SW, especially when this map is even more sniper friendly than Sidewinder. Doing this changes the flow of the game and acts as a counter to a team with strong sniper play.

Quote: the base pops up to quickly and you can't drive past it in a hog, maybe move the ice a little and shave off a little bit of the rock so that you can do driveby's in a hog without crashing into the vehicles that spawn at base


I agree with not having enough space, I will push back the small ledge in front of the base a bit.

Quote: remove this part, just compare the capping process on Sidewinder to Timberland, it's so much nicer to cap on Timberland, also less spawn kills, again the Sidewinder design creates a bottleneck


Capping on Timberland is way too noob friendly. It isn't difficult for a coordinated team to get the flag on Sidewinder, as clunky as it is to drive into the base. On Arteen's Grove it is even harder, yet the result is always the same with a solid push. Spawn kills are part of the game, much like ultimates in Overwatch. Consecutive deaths with nothing you can do are all attributed to a previous mistake of being outplayed.

Quote:
Make the walkways just a little bit wider, Halo is a laggy game and people tend to fall off


Taking this shortcut is intended to be a gamble, you are extremely vulnerable while doing so for a reason. You save several seconds trying to completely change where you are on the map, and shouldn't attempt doing so unless you are in trouble. Players in trouble need to work for their reward.

Thank you for the time and thought you put in your suggestions, whether I will entertain them in the final build or not. I noticed most of the changes you suggested would cater best to a public server setting with uncoordinated teams. Unfortunately I don't see maps this large surviving outside of competitive scrimmages and organized gamenights. Much of what you see will be left intact to nurture more raw, higher skill ceiling gameplay. Adding bottomless pits, widening roads/walkways for easier travel, making capping easier, and removing bottlenecks all assist the inexperienced players. This causes frustration for serious players looking for a map with minimal RNG, clear and set points to capture/defend, and no BS experience.


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 12:25 PM    Msg. 16 of 29       
Bump.


R93_Sniper
Joined: Feb 13, 2011

When in Doubt, RUN!


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 04:45 PM    Msg. 17 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: Ganon
Capping on Timberland is way too noob friendly. It isn't difficult for a coordinated team to get the flag on Sidewinder, as clunky as it is to drive into the base. On Arteen's Grove it is even harder, yet the result is always the same with a solid push. Spawn kills are part of the game, much like ultimates in Overwatch. Consecutive deaths with nothing you can do are all attributed to a previous mistake of being outplayed.

Thank you for the time and thought you put in your suggestions, whether I will entertain them in the final build or not. I noticed most of the changes you suggested would cater best to a public server setting with uncoordinated teams. Unfortunately I don't see maps this large surviving outside of competitive scrimmages and organized gamenights. Much of what you see will be left intact to nurture more raw, higher skill ceiling gameplay. Adding bottomless pits, widening roads/walkways for easier travel, making capping easier, and removing bottlenecks all assist the inexperienced players. This causes frustration for serious players looking for a map with minimal RNG, clear and set points to capture/defend, and no BS experience.



I seriously disagree with your ideology here. If you innately cater to "high skill" teams and not consider lower skill plots, then you're immediately destroying the longevity of your map. A better point to inject here is that very few of the current HCE players are actually anywhere near that skill level, nor will they bother playing a map that wont cater to their interests. You need to find that balance between noob and pro friendly that makes competitive viable but also makes playing with noobs fun.

Also, there's a slight bit of hypocrisy in your statement. You say you want to remove RNG, but you're up for spawnkilling? Realize that spawnkilling is more often than not a result of poor map and game design. You remove RNG by allowing players to have full control over their actions and consequences, not forcing them to die constantly or be unable to respawn of no fault of their own.

Now, I can see why you wouldnt want to do certain things concerning map flow, but you should also consider how well something plays. If you're bumping into stuff with a hog every 5 feet because there's no space to manuver, then you're clearly doing something wrong, especially if its a zone directed for vehicular play. Bottomless pits, widened roads, removing bottlenecks, these arent necessarially there for inexperienced players, they're around for map flow. Its fine to have bottlenecks, but give it the whole high risk high reward detail, give players incentive to go the dangerous route. Having a straight, 1-entry point for a base capture is pretty lame and honestly makes a lot of games drag on a lot longer than they need to. Look at some of the more popular maps and notice how their CTF points are structured for instance. Valhalla has three entrances (left, right, back) to the base, you have timberland with five (top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right, top center), sidewinder with a similar peice, etc etc.

TLDR: Be more open to the idea of "noobifying" your map as you seem to be keen on putting it. You'll have zero playerbase if you cater strictly to high level without considering low level.


Wolf_
Joined: May 16, 2006


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 08:09 PM    Msg. 18 of 29       
Looks great! Welcome back...?


MEGA_VKNG
Joined: Dec 23, 2013

Apparently not allowed to move on


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 09:09 PM    Msg. 19 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: Wolf_
Looks great! Welcome back...?


tbf its not like your that active either anymore ;-;


Ganon
Joined: Dec 5, 2009

www.gaybrosfromouterspace.com


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 09:38 PM    Msg. 20 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: R93_Sniper
If you innately cater to "high skill" teams and not consider lower skill plots, then you're immediately destroying the longevity of your map.

This is a very sensitive subject because nobody truly understands what the other person is trying to get across. Nothing against you personally, but I do not see myself getting anywhere talking about it in a game engine/design oriented community.

Quote: You say you want to remove RNG, but you're up for spawnkilling? Realize that spawnkilling is more often than not a result of poor map and game design.

The spawns were something I took into account and changed compared to Sidewinder where you can just drive around killing nonstop with a warthog. Hopefully this will be alleviated upon even further in the future. I want the spawns to reflect more of Danger Canyon and Ice Fields than the out in the middle or the road spawns of Sidewinder.

When I talked about spawnkilling earlier I am more or less referring to someone walking into a base with a power-weapon to open an alley for a teammate with a vehicle to come in and get away with the flag. This sequence is very brief, not the lawnmower effect you are probably thinking of.
Quote: If you're bumping into stuff with a hog every 5 feet because there's no space to manuver, then you're clearly doing something wrong, especially if its a zone directed for vehicular play

I need to reduce the clutter for sure. More space around the base, less pines/rocks, and adjustments to the sizing of the two roads that fork from the bases. In the end I hope to achieve the feel Ice Fields has.
Quote: Having a straight, 1-entry point for a base capture is pretty lame and honestly makes a lot of games drag on a lot longer than they need to. Look at some of the more popular maps and notice how their CTF points are structured for instance. Valhalla has three entrances (left, right, back) to the base, you have timberland with five (top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right, top center), sidewinder with a similar peice, etc etc.

I'm not sure your logic is sound here, nor do I get what you are implying about the map. Timberland has 3 viable entrances, 2 below and 1 at the top.

Dissolution has 4 entrances to the base and 4 routes of approach, equal to or more than any other large stock Halo map.


R93_Sniper
Joined: Feb 13, 2011

When in Doubt, RUN!


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 11:31 PM    Msg. 21 of 29       
I count the open window on the top as one. I also had recalled that timberland had one on either side on the top, so that one was my mistake, apologies.

And yes, i am directly thinking of the lawnmower effect a-la banshee grinding the top of the base on blood gulch. That sort of spawnkilling is stupid. But if it's the case of spawning and with random chance getting struck by a stray projectile thats fine and can easily be made such that its not your fault.

Maybe that'll clear up my statements, as well


Ganon
Joined: Dec 5, 2009

www.gaybrosfromouterspace.com


Posted: Jan 3, 2017 11:43 PM    Msg. 22 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: R93_Sniper
And yes, i am directly thinking of the lawnmower effect a-la banshee grinding the top of the base on blood gulch. That sort of spawnkilling is stupid. But if it's the case of spawning and with random chance getting struck by a stray projectile thats fine and can easily be made such that its not your fault.

Maybe that'll clear up my statements, as well


Absolutely, and to be clear the map will not have banshees or tanks. I am even considering removing a ghost or a warthog from each team.


sanni
Joined: Aug 11, 2011

cake <3


Posted: Jan 4, 2017 03:56 AM    Msg. 23 of 29       
That ofc makes sense.
I was talking solely from a pub server perspective where the only way to communicate with the majority of your team mates are some random spanish words that you've picked up ;)

Here is a short demonstration of the skill level you have to carter to nowadays.

I've since then removed the stones, they were just too big of a challenge

In a competitive setting you can ofc make the map as hard as you want. :)


iNTERFACE
Joined: Jan 4, 2017


Posted: Jan 4, 2017 05:18 AM    Msg. 24 of 29       
I know I said a couple of things on the TG forum, but I'll reserve proper judgment until after playing it a good few times.

I don't really agree on your view of spawn killing though. Yes it was a part of the game and mistakes could lead to getting spawn killed, but equally lag and random bs could also lead to you losing map control. Bamboo gave me (and others) a very similar response when discussing no lead. Basically he said that spawn killing was always a part of the game, that the better teams spawn kill the lesser teams, that no lead made no difference, etc. Personally I think no lead is great for 2v2 TS (give or take a few maps) but pretty horrible for competitive CTF, where the crappy spawn systems on stock maps are much more easily exploited (than with lead). Guess I'm just trying to say that the game has changed, and that's something to consider when designing maps (perhaps you have).

I look forward to trying it out.
Edited by iNTERFACE on Jan 4, 2017 at 05:21 AM


lolslayer
Joined: Mar 21, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMHbAKvPJkU


Posted: Jan 4, 2017 06:58 AM    Msg. 25 of 29       
Is this thread a reunion or something? I've seen at least 4 different accounts from before 2010


Ganon
Joined: Dec 5, 2009

www.gaybrosfromouterspace.com


Posted: Jan 4, 2017 11:36 AM    Msg. 26 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: iNTERFACE

I know I said a couple of things on the TG forum, but I'll reserve proper judgment until after playing it a good few times.

I don't really agree on your view of spawn killing though. Yes it was a part of the game and mistakes could lead to getting spawn killed, but equally lag and random bs could also lead to you losing map control. Bamboo gave me (and others) a very similar response when discussing no lead. Basically he said that spawn killing was always a part of the game, that the better teams spawn kill the lesser teams, that no lead made no difference, etc. Personally I think no lead is great for 2v2 TS (give or take a few maps) but pretty horrible for competitive CTF, where the crappy spawn systems on stock maps are much more easily exploited (than with lead). Guess I'm just trying to say that the game has changed, and that's something to consider when designing maps (perhaps you have).
Edited by iNTERFACE on Jan 4, 2017 at 05:21 AM


The spawning is better on the big Gearbox maps compared to the Bungie ones. Bloodgulch and Sidewinder have detrimental spawn locations that are hard to alter due to how the areas around the bases are designed. I dug myself a hole by using a Sidewinder esque template, but in the final build I will attempt to ease spawn killing to the best degree I can by moving around spawn locations. It is a tricky balance to find because too many diverse outside spawns gives the worse team the advantage by being right in the capper's escape route. Sanni could very well be correct that the flag needs to be moved forward because of this.

Bamboo may have meant that no lead doesn't make the game easier or break the gameplay in any way fundamentally. It just affects map design in a different direction for big maps. No lead suits the smaller maps well because of how much your FOV is limited by smaller areas and more dense geometry blocking your view. The larger maps have wide open spaces that worked well gameplay wise because lead introduced a natural delay in "kill time". Controllers have the same effect, which explains why the big Bungie maps ended up with the very open designs they have. When I designed Dissolution I took no lead into account for players moving along the teleporter route. Each outlooking location along a ledge/balcony near the teleporters has a very specific window of visibility towards each base and map center. I tried to make the windows small because skilled players will wreak havoc on players and vehicles when given large areas to survey with no lead. This clutter should allow better survivability for vehicles, which in turn leaves me with greater issues pertaining to spawning. So yes, I took no lead into account when making the design, but did not sweat the spawns too much due to being stuck in my ways. I tried my best to create something to adapt to the way no lead affects big map CTF gameplay. Theoretically, the spawning issue will be as simple as choosing the right locations and amount of spawns.


sbdjazz
Joined: Nov 14, 2015

-MISSING IN ACTION-


Posted: Jan 4, 2017 12:40 PM    Msg. 27 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: lolslayer
Is this thread a reunion or something? I've seen at least 4 different accounts from before 2010


Yeah! Kind of...


Lateksi
Joined: Jan 1, 2010


Posted: Jan 4, 2017 03:58 PM    Msg. 28 of 29       
Nice, looking forward to playing it on Sunday.


TG Bun
Joined: Nov 9, 2016


Posted: Jan 4, 2017 04:24 PM    Msg. 29 of 29       
Quote: --- Original message by: lolslayer
Is this thread a reunion or something? I've seen at least 4 different accounts from before 2010


You could say that

 

 
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