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Author Topic: Marine Variant Ideas (20 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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theshadow0222
Joined: Nov 7, 2016

"Oh, no."


Posted: Apr 12, 2017 12:41 PM    Msg. 1 of 20       
In my current project, I'm planning on having a few missions where you fight against UNSC Marines, mostly in the Elite or URF parts of my campaign. The issue is, marines are pretty boring to fight, so I've been trying to come up with ideas to spruce them up.

Currently, I have the concept of standard marines and ODSTs having helmets similar to those worn by Brutes in Reach and 2, with ODSTs being smarter than marines in terms of AI. Each squad will have a selection of purpose specific weapons (An MG, a couple of Riflemen with AR's and whatnot, an NCO with an SMG, and in some instances they will also have a sniper or rocket launcher with them,) and will engage you intelligently with them. They will also have an NCO, which slightly increase their intelligence until killed. If he dies, they might make a tactical retreat, though they won't rout like grunts.

I was also thinking of changing the lore a little, and making it so either Spartan 3's or 4's could be with them.

My main worry here is that if I make them too smart, they will just instantly suppress you and pin you down for like an hour, which won't be particularly fun. Suggestions?
Edited by theshadow0222 on Apr 12, 2017 at 06:38 PM


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Apr 12, 2017 06:00 PM    Msg. 2 of 20       
Your first mistake is planning on fighting humans. It goes against all of halos design principals


theshadow0222
Joined: Nov 7, 2016

"Oh, no."


Posted: Apr 12, 2017 06:34 PM    Msg. 3 of 20       
From a plot perspective, yes, but how so from a gameplay perspective? Other than it not being done before and therefore being poorly set up for in any halo game ever.
Edited by theshadow0222 on Apr 12, 2017 at 06:34 PM


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Apr 12, 2017 08:45 PM    Msg. 4 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Your first mistake is planning on fighting humans. It goes against all of halos design principals


Wait.....didn't the Covenant fight humans or something?

And didn't Spartan Black guy fight Master Chief?


theshadow0222
Joined: Nov 7, 2016

"Oh, no."


Posted: Apr 13, 2017 01:33 AM    Msg. 5 of 20       
I don't believe it's happened in any Halo games... and Locke was in Halo 5, and fought Chief in a cut scene. I think Halo 5 Warzone had Marines that you fought, but I can't remember. I think if you play as an Elite in Reach Firefight on the map Installation 04, you had to fight a group of ODSTs. But I think that's about.


Spartan314
Joined: Aug 21, 2010

Former biped rigger & FP animator


Posted: Apr 13, 2017 08:26 AM    Msg. 6 of 20       
I like the idea.
If you can get the AI to work, I think only then should you worry about them being too smart. I say go for it.


Banshee64
Joined: Dec 4, 2012

oify


Posted: Apr 13, 2017 04:40 PM    Msg. 7 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Your first mistake is planning on fighting humans. It goes against all of halos design principals
and putting brutes everywhere is a good halo design principal


Bungie LLC
Joined: Dec 29, 2013

.pots


Posted: Apr 13, 2017 04:45 PM    Msg. 8 of 20       
There seems to be an abysmal lack of understanding about what The Insurrection was, and the critical role it had within the Halo mythos.

Before the threat of the Covenant, humanity was locked in a bitter civil war of sorts between the pro-Earth government agencies (the UEG, and subsequently, the UNSC), and the large swaths of organized rebel groups in the Outer Colonies, collectively known as the Insurrectionists.

According to the Carver Findings, which were a set of political theories developed by Dr. Elias Carver in 2491, "Unless the political situation throughout the colonies is stabilized (preferably by force), the Government will collapse and civil war will rip human society apart."

In fact, The Insurrection was the original reason the SPARTAN-II Program and its precursors were conceived, in order to stomp out the rebels and their leadership with supersoldiers, not to fight aliens.


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: Apr 13, 2017 05:40 PM    Msg. 9 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Bungie LLC
- Story Time -


/\ See?
Edited by Super Flanker on Apr 13, 2017 at 05:41 PM


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Apr 13, 2017 10:22 PM    Msg. 10 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: theshadow0222

From a plot perspective, yes, but how so from a gameplay perspective? Other than it not being done before and therefore being poorly set up for in any halo game ever.
Edited by theshadow0222 on Apr 12, 2017 at 06:34 PM


It's really simple. You can see and dodge covenant weapons. You can't against weapons that are nearly instantaneous. Ask yourself if you've ever had a good fight against a flood using human weapons, or covenant using carbines and beam rifles. Or even worse the prometheans in H5 who use human weapons.

Sure you could edit it so that the humans use weapons that fire some modified projectile that changes into a standard gun when they die... but that would be so silly and in the end you'd just have covenant weapons being held by less interesting enemies.


Quote: --- Original message by: Banshee64
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Your first mistake is planning on fighting humans. It goes against all of halos design principals
and putting brutes everywhere is a good halo design principal


Tell me more! Like really. What do you think we could do to improve the brutes.
Edited by Masters1337 on Apr 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM


BKTiel
Joined: Mar 18, 2014

strong independent bird needs no cage


Posted: Apr 13, 2017 11:56 PM    Msg. 11 of 20       
Insurrection is basically Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare


theshadow0222
Joined: Nov 7, 2016

"Oh, no."


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 04:30 AM    Msg. 12 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

It's really simple. You can see and dodge covenant weapons. You can't against weapons that are nearly instantaneous. Ask yourself if you've ever had a good fight against a flood using human weapons, or covenant using carbines and beam rifles. Or even worse the prometheans in H5 who use human weapons.

Sure you could edit it so that the humans use weapons that fire some modified projectile that changes into a standard gun when they die... but that would be so silly and in the end you'd just have covenant weapons being held by less interesting enemies.

Edited by Masters1337 on Apr 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM


Ah, I see what your getting at. Not convinced it's as big a problem as you say it is though. Most of H1's gameplay revolved around trying to get into CQB (or with the flood, trying to stay just out of melee) with your opponent, and in the last stretch of that, dodging usually isn't an option anyway.

If I'm going with my level design plans for these missions, the longer stretch should be cut down a lot, in favour of tighter environments, and battles taking place at longer range would be more about recognising key threats in the squad, removing them and forcing your way up. Take out NCOs, Snipers and Machine Gunners, then you should be able to push up, and if I can get the AI working, the marines should perform something akin to a tactical retreat, and you should be mostly safe from the AR fire, allowing you to pick them off.


Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

Insurrection is basically Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare

Edited by Masters1337 on Apr 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM


I actually didn't mind IWs gameplay... it was the two hour unskipable cut scenes for every couple of firefights that got me. And I don't *think* it'd play like that game, lack of H5s spartan abilities aside, Halo and COD have two very different styles of combat. COD asks you to sit in a trench and pick enemies off, while the enemy sit in their trench too. Halos got more momentum to it, you siting in your trench signals the enemy to move up and swarm you.


R93_Sniper
Joined: Feb 13, 2011

When in Doubt, RUN!


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 04:55 AM    Msg. 13 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

Quote: --- Original message by: theshadow0222
From a plot perspective, yes, but how so from a gameplay perspective? Other than it not being done before and therefore being poorly set up for in any halo game ever.


It's really simple. You can see and dodge covenant weapons. You can't against weapons that are nearly instantaneous. Ask yourself if you've ever had a good fight against a flood using human weapons, or covenant using carbines and beam rifles. Or even worse the prometheans in H5 who use human weapons.

Sure you could edit it so that the humans use weapons that fire some modified projectile that changes into a standard gun when they die... but that would be so silly and in the end you'd just have covenant weapons being held by less interesting enemies.


Probably the biggest indication that you've never played Halo multiplayer, where human weapon starts are a thing. Readability in a firefight is definately something to take into consideration but playing versus AI with human weapons doesn't destroy gameplay as much as you're saying. Beyond that, you don't have to follow halo's design ideologies to the letter because quite frankly theres a fair amount of subjectivity with that in of itself. If somebody wants to do something silly? Let them. It's not hurting anyone, and could potentially become a lot of fun in a unique way if handled right.


JadeRifter
Joined: Dec 20, 2015

I'm a real light sleeper, Childs.


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 05:24 AM    Msg. 14 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

Quote: --- Original message by: theshadow0222

From a plot perspective, yes, but how so from a gameplay perspective? Other than it not being done before and therefore being poorly set up for in any halo game ever.
Edited by theshadow0222 on Apr 12, 2017 at 06:34 PM


It's really simple. You can see and dodge covenant weapons. You can't against weapons that are nearly instantaneous. Ask yourself if you've ever had a good fight against a flood using human weapons, or covenant using carbines and beam rifles. Or even worse the prometheans in H5 who use human weapons.

Sure you could edit it so that the humans use weapons that fire some modified projectile that changes into a standard gun when they die... but that would be so silly and in the end you'd just have covenant weapons being held by less interesting enemies.


Quote: --- Original message by: Banshee64
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Your first mistake is planning on fighting humans. It goes against all of halos design principals
and putting brutes everywhere is a good halo design principal


Tell me more! Like really. What do you think we could do to improve the brutes.
Edited by Masters1337 on Apr 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM


That doesn't make a lick of sense. I'm fighting against people using human weapons all of the time in multiplayer. If op wants to make a map where you fight humans, I say go for it. I've only fought the covenant a bajillion times.


OrangeJuice
Joined: Jan 29, 2009

I laugh at people who put STUDIOS in their name.


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 05:39 AM    Msg. 15 of 20       
Hilarious

Ppls trynna micromanage halo modding


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 07:44 AM    Msg. 16 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: R93_Sniper
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

Quote: --- Original message by: theshadow0222
From a plot perspective, yes, but how so from a gameplay perspective? Other than it not being done before and therefore being poorly set up for in any halo game ever.


It's really simple. You can see and dodge covenant weapons. You can't against weapons that are nearly instantaneous. Ask yourself if you've ever had a good fight against a flood using human weapons, or covenant using carbines and beam rifles. Or even worse the prometheans in H5 who use human weapons.

Sure you could edit it so that the humans use weapons that fire some modified projectile that changes into a standard gun when they die... but that would be so silly and in the end you'd just have covenant weapons being held by less interesting enemies.


Probably the biggest indication that you've never played Halo multiplayer, where human weapon starts are a thing. Readability in a firefight is definately something to take into consideration but playing versus AI with human weapons doesn't destroy gameplay as much as you're saying. Beyond that, you don't have to follow halo's design ideologies to the letter because quite frankly theres a fair amount of subjectivity with that in of itself. If somebody wants to do something silly? Let them. It's not hurting anyone, and could potentially become a lot of fun in a unique way if handled right.


Quote: --- Original message by: JadeRifter
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337

Quote: --- Original message by: theshadow0222

From a plot perspective, yes, but how so from a gameplay perspective? Other than it not being done before and therefore being poorly set up for in any halo game ever.
Edited by theshadow0222 on Apr 12, 2017 at 06:34 PM


It's really simple. You can see and dodge covenant weapons. You can't against weapons that are nearly instantaneous. Ask yourself if you've ever had a good fight against a flood using human weapons, or covenant using carbines and beam rifles. Or even worse the prometheans in H5 who use human weapons.

Sure you could edit it so that the humans use weapons that fire some modified projectile that changes into a standard gun when they die... but that would be so silly and in the end you'd just have covenant weapons being held by less interesting enemies.


Quote: --- Original message by: Banshee64
Quote: --- Original message by: Masters1337
Your first mistake is planning on fighting humans. It goes against all of halos design principals
and putting brutes everywhere is a good halo design principal


Tell me more! Like really. What do you think we could do to improve the brutes.
Edited by Masters1337 on Apr 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM


That doesn't make a lick of sense. I'm fighting against people using human weapons all of the time in multiplayer. If op wants to make a map where you fight humans, I say go for it. I've only fought the covenant a bajillion times.


The difference between MP and SP is that in MP the focus is map control and accuracy with your weapons more so than SP, which is more a puzzle of how to react to each enemy and their weapons. An encounter with AI isn't a calculated fight to who can land 3 or 4 shots to the head or secure power weapons.

If the OP wants to go and do this he is welcome to. I don't think it's a good idea. It's up to him if he values my opinion. Ask yourself.

Would the original Halo play better or worse if all projectiles went at the same speed as the plasma rifle?
What if they traveled even faster?
What would be the effects on gameplay?
Has the OP set up a prototype map to test his ideas before committing to his ideas in a full campaign?

It's important to be critical of your own ideas and others and realize when they suck or don't work well enough to keep. I do it all the time, hence the scrapping of the SPV3 tagset once the project is done as it has to many flaws in it to keep using it. This isn't just fan projects it's official games as well. Learn from others flaws and mistakes and don't recreate them because the concept sounds cool. If you are going to do something radically different, prototype, plan it, and don't get too attached to it.


theshadow0222
Joined: Nov 7, 2016

"Oh, no."


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 08:07 AM    Msg. 17 of 20       
To people defending my idea, I will say thanks, but I am actually interested in criticism of the idea as much as I am for ways to improve it, so don't attack Masters so much.
Edited by theshadow0222 on Apr 14, 2017 at 08:13 AM


JadeRifter
Joined: Dec 20, 2015

I'm a real light sleeper, Childs.


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 08:18 AM    Msg. 18 of 20       
They both focus on your ability to memorize patterns, and how good your combat skill is. SP makes combat less difficult because you can memorize patterns better than you could in multiplayer, players are more difficult and unpredictable to fight against than ai. In both scenarios the player will be using the map and their raw combat skill above all, just in different ways.

I tested this out and threw together a map where I was fighting marines, the result was similar to the way I fight covenant in that I use the map and my skill to eliminate them. It was actually kind of fun.

Like I said, some variety would be nice now and then, I've fought the default enemies countless times now. I'm not ready to criticize a potentially fun idea that hasn't even been executed yet.


Masters1337
Joined: Mar 5, 2006

halonaminator's unfortunate idol


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 08:25 AM    Msg. 19 of 20       
Quote: --- Original message by: theshadow0222

To people defending my idea, I will say thanks, but I am actually interested in criticism of the idea as much as I am for ways to improve it, so don't attack Masters so much.
Edited by theshadow0222 on Apr 14, 2017 at 08:13 AM


Unfortunately, I don't have any good answers as to how to improve it.

We obviously do have AI that use human weapons in SPV3.1, including some jackals who use the DMR/BR, AR, and sniper. We designed a glint system for the sniper rifle so you can see when enemies are looking down their sights, but the DMR/BR and AR ranks are used sparingly and always in conjunction with traditional covenant weapons which have their own unique properties as well. We do have the luxury of being able to modify these weapons to not be so effective vs the players shield as other weapons can eat through the players shield, much like the shredder works in the other maps.

While we do include these, I wouldn't put them up there with our best ideas. Unfortunately being such a long campaign, we do need to mix things up to keep things interesting, even if interesting doesn't always mean using the best ideas. All the enemy human weapon stuff is being dropped for the next project (current codename Oddball) and will be dropping all instantaneous weapons other than the particle carbine from enemy hands.
They both focus on your ability to memorize patterns, and how good your combat skill is. SP makes combat less difficult because you can memorize patterns better than you could in multiplayer, players are more difficult and unpredictable to fight against than ai. In both scenarios the player will be using the map and their raw combat skill above all, just in different ways.

Quote: --- Original message by: JadeRifter
They both focus on your ability to memorize patterns, and how good your combat skill is. SP makes combat less difficult because you can memorize patterns better than you could in multiplayer, players are more difficult and unpredictable to fight against than ai. In both scenarios the player will be using the map and their raw combat skill above all, just in different ways.

I tested this out and threw together a map where I was fighting marines, the result was similar to the way I fight covenant in that I use the map and my skill to eliminate them. It was actually kind of fun.

Like I said, some variety would be nice now and then, I've fought the default enemies countless times now. I'm not ready to criticize a potentially fun idea that hasn't even been executed yet.


Perhaps it be helpful if you posted this? I don't really see your assessment being accurate, as having enemies with bullets that travel the same speed, do the sameish damage per material, behave the same,and visually can not be distinguished from one another being inherently more frustrating and less engaging.


You should always be looking to criticize ideas, even your own. Nothing good ever came from saying yes to the first ideas that you come up with.
Edited by Masters1337 on Apr 14, 2017 at 08:33 AM
Edited by Masters1337 on Apr 14, 2017 at 08:34 AM


JadeRifter
Joined: Dec 20, 2015

I'm a real light sleeper, Childs.


Posted: Apr 14, 2017 08:53 AM    Msg. 20 of 20       
It actually wasn't that difficult, in most ways at least. Like I couldn't just walk up to a shotgun marine and try to beat him down, obviously. I did this on my crappy laptop so that made it slightly more difficult. The map has basic ai setup with firing positions, etc. I threw it together quickly so it's not very good, but it certainly could be. Also none of them were equipped for range so I could just slaughter them from a distance. I did have fun though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dA_iwQ_y4

Edit: Screw this map, someone made a bloodgulch mod that had ai players, and that was fun.
Edit2: The marines would need some tag editing. If you gave them spartans then it would be similar to fighting the covenant with their elites. Maybe some of the marines could use a helmet that prevents them from being one-shotted, and they could also use covenant weapons on occasion.
Edited by JadeRifter on Apr 14, 2017 at 10:11 AM

 

 
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