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Author Topic: Money (122 messages, Page 3 of 4)
Moderators: Dennis

Oskarmandude
Joined: Mar 16, 2013

Make Halomaps Fully Hectic Again


Posted: Apr 30, 2017 10:27 PM    Msg. 71 of 122       
Sparky puts a lot of effort into his crapposts


Spartan314
Joined: Aug 21, 2010

Former biped rigger & FP animator


Posted: May 1, 2017 08:36 AM    Msg. 72 of 122       
Once again he reaffirms his place in your profile picture.


Jesse
Joined: Jan 18, 2009

Discord: Jesse#4500


Posted: May 2, 2017 02:47 AM    Msg. 73 of 122       
I am feeling deserving.


Vergil
Joined: Jun 13, 2011

you're just mad cuz you're angry


Posted: May 2, 2017 02:25 PM    Msg. 74 of 122       
who was that guy that posted years ago a lot of garbo and drama in the Halo HUD Development thread (this was years ago)


Jesse
Joined: Jan 18, 2009

Discord: Jesse#4500


Posted: May 2, 2017 03:34 PM    Msg. 75 of 122       
You'd have to be more specific. Drama happens all the time in good ol' Halomaps.


R93_Sniper
Joined: Feb 13, 2011

When in Doubt, RUN!


Posted: May 2, 2017 08:08 PM    Msg. 76 of 122       
Only person i can think of is Mangyeko


not m00kz
Joined: Feb 21, 2017

are you pecking kidding me


Posted: May 2, 2017 09:44 PM    Msg. 77 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: sparky
I would like to discuss potential for legally earning money for work in this game.


thats not a thing you can do


not giraffe
Joined: Jul 17, 2014


Posted: May 2, 2017 09:50 PM    Msg. 78 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: not m00kz
Quote: --- Original message by: sparky
I would like to discuss potential for legally earning money for work in this game.


thats not a thing you can do


thats too bad


not m00kz
Joined: Feb 21, 2017

are you pecking kidding me


Posted: May 2, 2017 10:08 PM    Msg. 79 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: not giraffe


who do you actually, physically think u is.


bourrin33
Joined: Oct 19, 2009

HEK not installed tho


Posted: May 4, 2017 05:36 PM    Msg. 80 of 122       
I just came across this thread and, besides being pointless, I wonder what's the mindset required to write text walls, and how long does it takes to you to write it?


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: May 4, 2017 07:51 PM    Msg. 81 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: bourrin33
I just came across this thread and, besides being pointless, I wonder what's the mindset required to write text walls, and how long does it takes to you to write it?



I have it on good authority that sparky holds shares in predictive text technologies.


Twinreaper
Joined: Jun 5, 2010


Posted: May 5, 2017 03:02 AM    Msg. 82 of 122       
Actually this thread does the raise the question about where Microsoft actually stands on the issue, and the most recent 1.10 update provided by Bungie.

Technically, Bungie employees got paid (made profit) by altering and distributing the patch to begin with. Since Bungie is no longer a contracted developer, this in itself is a violation. Since proof cannot be provided that Bungie obtained proper usage and or clearance to do so, it is a logical assumption that either Microsoft looked the other way, or because ligigation with another developer and it's backer (Activision), likely provides a larger degree of difficulty than some basement pleb.

As for you Dennis, I'm not picking on you or saying that your wrong, but if we are going to throw around phrases like "it's been litigated", then let's see some links for the case files which should be public record.

As for you Sparky, I can't say I blame you for posing the question. But you also need to remember that you CHOSE to dedicate the time you put into the game. If in hind sight you wish you hadn't, then that is simply a poor life choice you have to live with.

All the conjecture, laughing, trolling and the like aside, this is a 15+ year old game. Even, EVEN IF you could obtain a go ahead to sell work for the game, how much are you really likely to make? You can't write it off on taxes, there is no real market for it, and with all the free content available, I cannot believe that people are "holding out" the good stuff cause they are not getting paid. Just my 5 cents....


not m00kz
Joined: Feb 21, 2017

are you pecking kidding me


Posted: May 5, 2017 12:05 PM    Msg. 83 of 122       
90% of current players aren't willing to pay for ce.

What makes you think they'd be willing to pay for a mod for ce


Dennis

Joined: Jan 27, 2005

"We are made of starstuff.” ― Carl Sagan


Posted: May 5, 2017 12:23 PM    Msg. 84 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: Twinreaper
Actually this thread does the raise the question about where Microsoft actually stands on the issue,
It doesn't. Microsoft owns the intellectual property rights to the Halo franchise. They are very clear in their intentions about the product as indicated in their EULA and usage guides and statements. In the past they have issued very public cease and desist orders on fan made content and have a history of protecting their property rights. They are actually very liberal about fan made products but you cannot start a business to sell their intellectual property rights or the Halo game no matter how much you may quibble or prevaricate in this forum.
Edited by Dennis on May 5, 2017 at 12:25 PM


Caesar
Joined: Jul 1, 2013


Posted: May 5, 2017 04:34 PM    Msg. 85 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: Dennis

Quote: --- Original message by: Twinreaper
Actually this thread does the raise the question about where Microsoft actually stands on the issue,
It doesn't. Microsoft owns the intellectual property rights to the Halo franchise. They are very clear in their intentions about the product as indicated in their EULA and usage guides and statements. In the past they have issued very public cease and desist orders on fan made content and have a history of protecting their property rights. They are actually very liberal about fan made products but you cannot start a business to sell their intellectual property rights or the Halo game no matter how much you may quibble or prevaricate in this forum.
Edited by Dennis on May 5, 2017 at 12:25 PM



Y people so scared of microsoft they dont care about halo. Sparky has the rights to do this. Idk after halo 6 is out microsoft will no longer care for halo.


The Master
Joined: Aug 8, 2014

~En Lepanto la victoria y la muerte en Trafalgar~


Posted: May 5, 2017 04:54 PM    Msg. 86 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: Caesar
Quote: --- Original message by: Dennis

Quote: --- Original message by: Twinreaper
Actually this thread does the raise the question about where Microsoft actually stands on the issue,
It doesn't. Microsoft owns the intellectual property rights to the Halo franchise. They are very clear in their intentions about the product as indicated in their EULA and usage guides and statements. In the past they have issued very public cease and desist orders on fan made content and have a history of protecting their property rights. They are actually very liberal about fan made products but you cannot start a business to sell their intellectual property rights or the Halo game no matter how much you may quibble or prevaricate in this forum.
Edited by Dennis on May 5, 2017 at 12:25 PM



Y people so scared of microsoft they dont care about halo. Sparky has the rights to do this. Idk after halo 6 is out microsoft will no longer care for halo.
Even if there's no reason to be scared of them, the right thing to do is still asking them for permission.


Dennis

Joined: Jan 27, 2005

"We are made of starstuff.” ― Carl Sagan


Posted: May 5, 2017 05:19 PM    Msg. 87 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: Caesar
Sparky has the rights to do this.
Incorrect.

You can't rent an apartment fix the holes in the walls paint it then sell it to to someone else. Which is essentially what he wants to do. You license software you don't own it.


samnwck
Joined: Sep 4, 2014


Posted: May 5, 2017 05:30 PM    Msg. 88 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: Caesar

Y people so scared of microsoft they dont care about halo. Sparky has the rights to do this. Idk after halo 6 is out microsoft will no longer care for halo.


Yeah, a lot of companies tend to write off $3,000,000,000+ franchises when they finish developing content for that IP. No one makes sequels or reboots anything 5 to 10 to 50 years down the line.
Edited by samnwck on May 5, 2017 at 05:33 PM


Corvette19
Joined: Feb 27, 2007


Posted: May 5, 2017 06:04 PM    Msg. 89 of 122       
If you're investing time trying to make money off a 14 year old game, you are going to have a bad time. Go drive for uber or something.


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

CE3 - Takedown - HaloCE3.com


Posted: May 5, 2017 06:24 PM    Msg. 90 of 122       
I want to see Sparky do this for
1) To get sued lol
2) To see no one will want to buy his crap


Nickster5000
Joined: Dec 11, 2010

Sector 09 RR: 2017


Posted: May 5, 2017 10:24 PM    Msg. 91 of 122       
Shoutout to Dennis for keeping his patience, and explaining these concepts a million times without losing his cool.


PRPatxi
Joined: Oct 30, 2010

Dennis, free me from this suffering


Posted: May 6, 2017 11:27 AM    Msg. 92 of 122       
Money doesn't buy happiness.


sparky
Joined: Jun 27, 2009

sparky#0096


Posted: May 6, 2017 07:01 PM    Msg. 93 of 122       
The HEK's EULA says this incorrect statement, and the HEK does install without agreeing to -- or even seeing -- the EULA, which is contained by the EulaHEK.dll and EulaHEK.rtf files placed in the same location as the HEKSetup 1.00.exe installer, not the installation directory:

Quote: This product will not set up on your computer unless or until you accept the terms of the EULA.


Regarding the HEK's EULA and reverse engineering, section 2 of EulaHEK.rtf says:

Quote: Limitations on Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, and Disassembly. You may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.


DMCA:
https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
Page 3 says that
Quote:
Section 103 of the DMCA adds a new chapter 12 to Title 17 of the U.S. Code.
New section 1201 implements the obligation to provide adequate and effective
protection against circumvention of technological measures used by copyright owners
to protect their works

...which is not present in the HEK IDE software.

The top of page 4 clarifies that "fair use" is applicable when there is no adequate and effective protection that is being circumvented. Page 4 also says that the section is related to:
Quote:
Section 1201 proscribes devices or services that fall within any one of the
following three categories:
* they are primarily designed or produced to circumvent;
* they have only limited commercially significant purpose or use other
than to circumvent; or
* they are marketed for use in circumventing.


None of which is applicable to the actions of the Halo communities or myself, since we are not devising hacks or "cracks" (as the Halo Maps Forum rules put it) or other "circumventions" to the HEK or other copyrighted software. Rather, it is analysis of unprotected files, a study of the behavior of the software itself, that is of interest on this forum and to this community.

Page 5 says that, given those (nonexistent) protections,
Quote:
Reverse engineering (section 1201(f)). This exception permits
circumvention, and the development of technological means for such
circumvention, by a person who has lawfully obtained a right to use a
copy of a computer program for the sole purpose of identifying and
analyzing elements of the program necessary to achieve interoperability
with other programs, to the extent that such acts are permitted under
copyright law


And this statement at the bottom of page 6 summarizes the actions that the DMCA is designed to prohibit:
Quote:
(ii) to distribute, import for distribution, broadcast
or communicate to the public, without authority,
works or copies of works knowing that electronic rights
management information has been removed or altered
without authority


So in sum, there can be no "DMCA takedown notice" because the DMCA does not actually apply to anything related to the Halo Editing Kit. The only application is to the commercial Halo PC game disc and its contents licensed with a CD Key; and even then, there would be no removal of electronic rights information from the software itself. There is no electronic rights management information being removed or altered by anyone in the community.

The only relevant laws are those of copyright. And since everyone is designing their own work and that can be applied to a usage terms -- just like the HEK notably does not include any Halo game map files or map file .scenario tags -- it's their own copyrighted work, even after they use it with the HEK or any other copyrighted application.

So about copyright:

The EULA says the license agreement is with Gearbox Software, and yet says that the copyright belongs to Microsoft:

Quote: Note: These downloadable features provided by Gearbox Software LLC (“Gearbox”) on this website are UNSUPPORTED and are provided solely for use with the Microsoft® Halo® software game for the personal computer.

[...]

Should you have any questions concerning this EULA or desire to receive a copy of this EULA, you may write Gearbox at: Gearbox Software, 101 East Park Blvd #1069, Plano, TX 75074.

[...]

IMPORTANT—READ CAREFULLY: This End-User License Agreement (“EULA”) is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Gearbox Software LLC (“Gearbox”) for the unsupported software accompanying this EULA, which includes computer software and may include associated media, and “online” or electronic documentation (“SOFTWARE PRODUCT” or “SOFTWARE”). By downloading, installing, copying, accessing or otherwise using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, you may not use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.

[...]

3. COPYRIGHT. All title and copyrights in and to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including but not limited to any images, photographs, animations, video, audio, music, text, and “applets” incorporated into the SOFTWARE PRODUCT), the accompanying printed materials, and any copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT are owned by Microsoft or its suppliers. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international treaty provisions. Therefore, you must treat the SOFTWARE PRODUCT like any other copyrighted material.


Now I have no idea what "Microsoft's suppliers" means in this case. The legalese is inclusive of everything that "HEKSetup 1.00.exe" installs on your computer, which notably lacks any "Halo Game Content" except a few random example tags like I mentioned earlier.

The HEK Tutorial puts it this way:
http://hce.halomaps.org/hek/index.html?start=main/terms.html
http://hce.halomaps.org/hek/index.html?start=main/legal.html
http://hce.halomaps.org/hek/index.html?start=main/credits.html

Quote: No part of this document or the materials contained therein may be reproduced for commercial use without the express written consent of Bungie Studios, Gearbox Software, and Microsoft Corporation.

None of the materials contained within the Halo PC End User Editing Kit may be distributed for commercial use without the express written consent of Bungie Studios, Gearbox Software, and Microsoft Corporation.

© Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Microsoft, Bungie and Halo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of Microsoft Corporation in the United States and/or other countries.

Developed by Gearbox Software, L.L.C. Gearbox Software and the Gearbox logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of Gearbox Software, L.L.C.

Discreet, 3ds max™ are either registered trademarks or trademarks of Autodesk Canada Inc./Autodesk, Inc. in the USA and/or other countries.

All other brand names, product names, or trademarks belong to their respective holders.

All rights reserved.


I didn't know that Bungie was a registered trademark of Microsoft Corporation. That's fascinating news to me.

Quote: Halo PC End User Editing Kit Development Team:

Tutorials and Documentation:
Matthew Armstrong
David Mertz
Marc Tardif
Programming:
Shawn Green
Steve Jones
Charles Kostick
Sean Reardon
Jimmy Sieben
Scott Velasquez
Original Halo Tools Programming:

Mat Noguchi and the Bungie Halo Programming team
Additional Contributions:

The halo.bungie.net web development team (background images and web graphics)

Special Thanks:

Roger Wolfson - Test Lead
Microsoft Corporation and Microsoft Game Studios
Bungie Studios
Gearbox Software Team
All of the Halo fans


Microsoft is only listed as "special thanks" rather than given any credit.

Different to the license terms is the information in the software itself:

Quote:





The copyright for Sapien says 2001 in the application's Help menu, but in the application's properties, it dates 2004:

Quote:



You can see in that screenshot that Matthew Noguchi did not mention the copyright owner with Sapien. Guerilla is copyrighted by Bungie Software Products, Inc. . The software itself has nothing to do with Microsoft, despite the EULA stating that copyright for the HEK is Microsoft's and that the HEK is distributed and -- logistically partially, but not officially -- supported by Gearbox.

My final comment is this:
No one is losing money and nothing is being stolen in the event that artists design assets or tags or maps or applications and sell them to each other.
Edited by sparky on May 6, 2017 at 07:20 PM


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

CE3 - Takedown - HaloCE3.com


Posted: May 6, 2017 07:24 PM    Msg. 94 of 122       
DO IT! Please try to sell something. I must see


Super Flanker
Joined: Oct 5, 2012

The length of your life depends on my aim.


Posted: May 6, 2017 08:57 PM    Msg. 95 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: PRPatxi
Money doesn't buy happiness.


That's exactly what a poor person would say. :V


Dennis

Joined: Jan 27, 2005

"We are made of starstuff.” ― Carl Sagan


Posted: May 6, 2017 09:26 PM    Msg. 96 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: sparky

The software itself has nothing to do with Microsoft, despite the EULA stating that copyright for the HEK is Microsoft's [...]


This is the single dumbest thing I have read all week which is saying something considering who is in the white house. Microsoft holds the copyright to the HEK and all Halo intellectual property regardless of who actually developed it.

If you are so sure of yourself just write a letter to Microsoft outlining your business plan.


Pepzee
Joined: Sep 9, 2010


Posted: May 7, 2017 02:26 AM    Msg. 97 of 122       
If folks aren't willing to donate to keep Halomaps running, there is no way they would be willing to pay someone else to make content. This is a hobby for most people and I'd learn how to make what I want myself if I really wanted it.



Quote: --- Original message by: Super Flanker
That's exactly what a poor person would say. :V

This is just a completely false statement.
Edited by Pepzee on May 7, 2017 at 02:28 AM


not giraffe
Joined: Jul 17, 2014


Posted: May 7, 2017 02:34 AM    Msg. 98 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: Pepzee

Quote: --- Original message by: Super Flanker
That's exactly what a poor person would say. :V

This is just a completely false statement.

Not completely false. Puerto Rico filed bankruptcy recently.


Twinreaper
Joined: Jun 5, 2010


Posted: May 7, 2017 03:38 AM    Msg. 99 of 122       
Actually no one owns or hold any copyright on the HEK download file. Every Copyright or Trademark from 1978 to present is available through the Library of Congress. Their databes is extensive. There is no registered or held copyright for the HEK. Microsoft owns copyrights on all Halo products that they actually registered. The HEK is NOT one of them actually. The only PC game copyright held by them is for 2001, the Xbox cd-rom kit. V1.0.

Now you can argue that Halo as a whole is owned by Microsoft, but by law, each new Halo product has to be copyright regestered, hence why if you look through the Congress database, you will see virtually every game, book, digital media, etc.... EXCEPT the HEK package.

I'm not taking sides just listinb information that has an actual legal backing and documented proof rather than just silly blocks of quotes with more blah blah blah and no links.

Under all Halo game titles, the type of copyright is "Computer file". Only because the originating creation medium is the computer.

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=5&ti=1,5&SEQ=20170507033551&Search%5FArg=halo%20combat%20evolved&Search%5FCode=TALL&CNT=25&PID=zWXSLZfgzbkWjqychApC6mEOWlU&SID=4

There are two copyrights for Halo for PC. One listed as 2001 which is Halo Combat Evolved for Xbox, obviously....

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=4&ti=1,4&SEQ=20170507033757&Search%5FArg=halo%20combat%20evolved&Search%5FCode=TALL&CNT=25PID=SbpYh99OaUnfJGZwSXMiXMRp80v&SID=4

And here is the one for HCE PC. After that, no copyright for an HEK can be found anywhere within the United States official Copyright Office or Library of Congress.

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=3&ti=1,3&SEQ=20170507033801&Search%5FArg=halo%20combat%20evolved&Search%5FCode=TALL&CNT=25&PID=Cg3laNCUe3jcPATa2GBhAZleFU&SID=4


MEGA_VKNG
Joined: Dec 23, 2013

no.


Posted: May 8, 2017 08:43 PM    Msg. 100 of 122       
sparky, just sell. If you expect this to be a good source of income I think many people would get a kick out of seeing you homeless.


sparky
Joined: Jun 27, 2009

sparky#0096


Posted: May 8, 2017 08:46 PM    Msg. 101 of 122       
Twinreaper, thanks for looking up those entries. The second and third links are to strategy guides. Here is the search link:

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&PAGE=First
Edited by sparky on May 8, 2017 at 08:49 PM

Results for "halo combat evolved":
http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=halo+combat+evolved&Search_Code=TALL&PID=v-hVRV18SJ99_54G-A_8aqu_rj&SEQ=20170508205055&CNT=25&HIST=1

No results for "halo custom edition" or "halo editing kit".
Edited by sparky on May 8, 2017 at 08:51 PM

Works are still copyrighted even if they are not registered with the US Copyright Office. In court, however, it is a major help to the copyright owner if the copyrighted work is registered.

But I already explained why nobody is going to sue in court over this. And if they do, they're going to be emptying their own pockets in pointless legal expenses. That is not a concern. The only concern of mine is how to properly approach the Halo programming and modding community financially supporting itself for all this work people do. Credit is fine, but people work for a reason.
Edited by sparky on May 8, 2017 at 08:55 PM


Nickster5000
Joined: Dec 11, 2010

Sector 09 RR: 2017


Posted: May 8, 2017 08:59 PM    Msg. 102 of 122       
Quote: --- Original message by: Dennis
Microsoft holds the copyright to the HEK and all Halo intellectual property regardless of who actually developed it.


I think this is where the misconception lies.

What Dennis said implies that: If you create ANYTHING Halo, whether it is a program, 3D model from scratch, a program that modifies halo, or whatever it may be (relating to Halo), Microsoft automatically owns the copyright to it.

Quote: --- Original message by: sparky
No results for "halo custom edition" or "halo editing kit".


These rules do not care what you find in these "legal document" databases.

I mean, by all means Sparky, you can search through this thing and make all the arguments you want... But who is realistically going to win? You, because you think you can formulate your argument based on this database... or Microsoft's dozen of lawyers (who probably make a lot of money), and have endless time to do their own research, and can prepare a case beyond your scope of comprehension?

Is it really worth your time to beat a dead horse and keep arguing about this?
Edited by Nickster5000 on May 8, 2017 at 09:04 PM
Edited by Nickster5000 on May 8, 2017 at 09:08 PM


Caesar
Joined: Jul 1, 2013


Posted: May 8, 2017 09:15 PM    Msg. 103 of 122       
Tbh microsoft dont care for halo pc dude.

Look at it. Pple nowa dayz need to stop being scared of microsoft. Y would microsoft care about this 15 years old game?
Edited by Caesar on May 8, 2017 at 09:15 PM


MEGA_VKNG
Joined: Dec 23, 2013

no.


Posted: May 8, 2017 09:37 PM    Msg. 104 of 122       
sparky, just sell. If you get sued we'd all get a kick out of it.


Spartan314
Joined: Aug 21, 2010

Former biped rigger & FP animator


Posted: May 8, 2017 11:31 PM    Msg. 105 of 122       
Do it.
Record yourself and put it on youtube too.

 
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