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Author Topic: The Recreation of other Halo campaigns in Halo CE. (14 messages, Page 1 of 1)
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BioGoji1989
Joined: Dec 24, 2017


Posted: Dec 31, 2017 01:41 PM    Msg. 1 of 14       
Now, I'm well aware of a cancelled attempt by CMT to remake the Halo 2 campaign for Halo CE, but I was wondering if anyone else has ever attempted to recreate the campaigns for Halo 2 or the other Halo games in CE? I mean, I think it would be pretty cool to see the campaigns for H3, ODST, and even Reach recreated in CE or in CE style.

Now, I am aware of a series of single player maps that take place on Reach, one of which actually incorporates the Powerhouse map from Reach into the fourth map, but I have yet to see anyone actually recreate entire missions from the other campaigns yet, aside from the aforementioned Halo 2 CMT project that apparently went into a coma and won't ever wake up.

If anyone has any information on this, I'd like to hear it. And don't be afraid to call me an idiot for not delving deep enough into this site's archives to find such things.


Kinnet
Joined: Dec 27, 2013

Redoin biped set of anims from scratch > Riging it


Posted: Dec 31, 2017 04:10 PM    Msg. 2 of 14       
It is "possible" but you would need to remove big chunks of the campaings because some stuff just can't be done in CE, and even then it would take 7-10 years (probably a lot more) to make the maps. Just look how much time it took for MatthewDratt to port one single map from halo 3 to HCE:
http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=46807


BioGoji1989
Joined: Dec 24, 2017


Posted: Dec 31, 2017 10:25 PM    Msg. 3 of 14       
Quote: --- Original message by: Kinnet
It is "possible" but you would need to remove big chunks of the campaigns because some stuff just can't be done in CE, and even then it would take 7-10 years (probably a lot more) to make the maps. Just look how much time it took for MatthewDratt to port one single map from halo 3 to HCE:
http://forum.halomaps.org/index.cfm?page=topic&topicID=46807


Oh yeah. I almost forgot about the Sierra 117 project. Has it really taken this much time for that thing to... uh, not get released yet?

Anyway, I'm fine with not being able to recreate everything 100% or even needing to change parts of the campaigns to fit the CE engine. I just want to be able to play out the story of the games in CE, or at least a story that fits that major outline of the other games. Changing or even removing certain details, such as the Scarabs or other very large and complex vehicles, are fine with me.

The Scarab could easily be changed to some other large vehicles that simply flies very low to the ground and is only seen in full from far away as a small object in the distance, and up close the player would only get to see parts of it before jumping onto the top, via cutscene to avoid the blam engine's physics problems, when the vehicle has been stopped at some kind of blockade.

This being said, is it possible to recreate the Halo 2 E3 demo map in CE, or at least a very close facsimile of it that would be playable? I know that the actual demo was created through intense and heavy scripting that would cause the game to break if the main path was deviated from, but would it be possible for a playable version of that map to be remade in CE? I mean, one could conceivably recreate that map and then use that as a jumping point for a whole new Halo 2 single player campaign that has its own twists and turns that make it separate from Bungie's version.

Seriously, in the time since Halo 2's release, I'm kind of shocked I haven't found a single playable single-player CE recreation of that E3 demo.

So, back to the main point, I do appreciate what you've said, but the limitations of the engine could actually be beneficial in allowing or even forcing modders to actually get more creative in how they change the way the story flows. While I am certainly disappointed that I'll never be able to recreate the part of Reach where Emile and Six have to ride a vehicle under and around two scarabs (that was thrilling as hell), I'll live. After all, to make an unusual comparison, JAWS (1975) had a lot of technical problems and limitations in regards to special effects, forcing the director to hide the shark for most of the movie, thus simply implying its presence and raising the tension far more than if the shark had actually been seen throughout most of the movie. Sometimes, having limitations forces us to think outside of the box, and that is when we can get truly creative.

But still, why has no one made a playable recreation of the Halo 2 E3 demo yet!?
Edited by BioGoji1989 on Dec 31, 2017 at 10:26 PM


Mangenkyo
Joined: Jul 14, 2009

Yep!.. i know i'm in Space..


Posted: Jan 1, 2018 10:49 AM    Msg. 4 of 14       
You want to play the campaign of those games? Go play them.


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

Newly redesigned MattDratt.com


Posted: Jan 1, 2018 07:16 PM    Msg. 5 of 14       
Quote: --- Original message by: Mangenkyo
You want to play the campaign of those games? Go play them.


FtDSpartn
Joined: May 1, 2009

AI fanatic and rookie programmer.


Posted: Jan 2, 2018 11:00 AM    Msg. 6 of 14       
Due to engine constraints, most things in the later games are just not possible as others have already said. In addition, the game is going on 17 years old at this point and most people are not willing to put in the time or effort to make the campaign of a game that will not even really be close to the original.


MatthewDratt
Joined: Sep 11, 2010

Newly redesigned MattDratt.com


Posted: Jan 2, 2018 12:33 PM    Msg. 7 of 14       
Honestly the main issue when porting over Sierra 117 and what sounds like a similar issue for the H2SPP team is the instance geometry.

In Halo 1, all the BSP must be 100% closed off. Any other objects like trees & rocks are scenery. Those are lit and pathfound independently.

In Halo 2+, some of those objects are actually part of the scenery as instance geometry. The cliffs in Sierra 117? Those are all independent rocks, rescale up and down and rotated around to look like a rocky cliff. Same with the trees and buildings.

Kirby made a little app that'd just auto-import instance as scenery, but there were a variety of issues with that approach. Such as scale, which would need to be set independently one object at a time. My AI were also have a variety of issues with so many scenery objects and would constantly just run into objects as if they weren't there. Another issue, especially with the cliffs, is that each scenery object was lit independently. In the end, you'd get the ugliest cliff ever as a rock, even if it was huge, was lit as one shade, and then the 4 rocks around it would also be lit differently.

The only solution I found was to just import that stuff into the actual BSP, which involves boolean-ing it into the geometry and closing it off. Which took forever.

Honestly I think it'd be easier to just do a complete 100% remake, not a port over. Stylize it, make it your own. But a straight import just brings tons of issues.


002
Joined: Jan 28, 2015


Posted: Jan 2, 2018 01:42 PM    Msg. 8 of 14       
I'd imagine it's possible to get something playable, even making it play very similar to the original game, but you'd need to throw around a lot of workarounds.

Graphics and model geometry would have to be dumbed down. Halo CE's shaders are limited, and the engine itself has limitations on particles and BSP polygons. Too many on-screen objects will cause the frame rate to tank due to poor optimization. There is not much you can do about this.

Physics obviously won't be the same. In Halo CE, it's almost as if looking at a warthog too hard will kill you. Perhaps it would be possible to scale this damage more properly, though.

Recreating cutscenes 1:1 would no doubt be extremely time consuming, and some elements may need to be improvised to make up for this nearly 16-and-a-half-year-old video game's limited set of assets.

I've talked to altis about Halo CE scripting and, according to him, the Halo CE scripting engine is very limited. However, he's demonstrated some pretty interesting things with early versions of the Lua interpreter in Chimera. For instance, he made a demo of him being able to see his legs when you run. According to him, Lua is a lot better in things like logic and looping, and my Lua interpreter allows you access to Halo's memory as well as the ability to spawn arbitrary objects.

I imagine if I were to go back to working on Lua scripting with Chimera, I could add a drop_weapon and assign_weapon function, and you would be able to, more or less, make proper dual wielding out of this by spawning/despawning a dual version of a weapon and changing the ammo directly.

If you need to use more than two grenade types, there is Open Sauce, but you could also be able to do this with Lua scripting as well by changing the grenade HUD interface, grenade count, and grenade projectile dynamically when players change grenades.

For a Halo 3-style health/shield system, you could use Lua scripting to heal players over time when the player's shield is full.

However, I'm not sure if tool.exe would actually be willing to go through with putting these ginormous assets (BSPs, textures, sounds, etc.) in one map file, even if they were dumbed down. It wouldn't surprise me if some maps ended up having to be split up into multiple parts.

With a Halo CE engine augmented with a new scripting system to work around Halo's limited scripting system, as well as 1-3 cache files per map, cut-down graphics, and Halo CE's notoriously bad physics, sure it's possible after months or years of painstakingly remaking all of the cutscenes and scripting from Halo 3. However, in that amount of time, you could have started a decent indie game and made a lot of money off of it.

Not only would this be a ginormous waste of time, but no matter how hard you try, you wouldn't get the original Halo 3 experience, and people would no doubt heavily criticize you for this. Still, I think it would be pretty cool if someone did this.


I don't know very much about Halo mapping/scripting in Custom Edition. I just make mods. However, this is my personal analysis. Take it as you will.
Edited by 002 on Jan 2, 2018 at 01:49 PM


TheHaloKnight
Joined: Jun 11, 2015

Who's j00! ?


Posted: Jan 2, 2018 02:47 PM    Msg. 9 of 14       
Quote: --- Original message by: MatthewDratt
Words

If before you started this, you knew about all the negative stuff you were going to face during the development of this mod, would you still have done it ?


OrangeJuice
Joined: Jan 29, 2009

halohek.pbworks.com


Posted: Jan 2, 2018 04:01 PM    Msg. 10 of 14       
the TLDR version of it is that Halo Custom Edition has no animators. At least none who know the ins-and outs of the animation graph system even though it is properly documented in the before you ask topic



(Trying to keep 100% of everything 1:1 with the original is what killed the zelda maps. Porting all of those terrible... terrible.. 3d rips was muy complicado )

Why, you planning to make a replica map?
Edited by OrangeJuice on Jan 2, 2018 at 04:05 PM


R93_Sniper
Joined: Feb 13, 2011

When in Doubt, RUN!


Posted: Jan 2, 2018 07:12 PM    Msg. 11 of 14       
Quote: --- Original message by: OrangeJuice

the TLDR version of it is that Halo Custom Edition has no animators. At least none who know the ins-and outs of the animation graph system even though it is properly documented in the before you ask topic


Thats not true. We just like to hide


BioGoji1989
Joined: Dec 24, 2017


Posted: Jan 2, 2018 11:26 PM    Msg. 12 of 14       
I really do appreciate all of the input from everyone, but to clear a few things up.

First, I would never attempt to fully replicate the Halo 3 or Halo 2 experience. Besides, I hate Halo 2 and Halo 3's health and shield systems. I despise the removal of the health bar, and I think that Halo 2 and Halo 3 both suffer tremendously for it. Also, I've never really cared for dual-wielding. I mean, yeah, it's certainly useful at times, but it's not really something that I would prioritize in a remake.

Although, there is one particular issue here that absolutely no one has brought up in regards to the later games when compared to the first one. Can you guess what it is?

It's weapon exchanging. Here's one aspect of all later Halo titles that I absolutely adore; being able to exchange weapons with the Marines so as to give them a better chance at survival (so that they can last longer and distract the enemy on higher difficulties), and so that they can actually be useful (if they don't use an explosive at close range, that is). I have to see anything that tells me if it is possible to perform weapon exchange with friendly AI in CE. Does anyone know if this is possible in CE's engine?

So, anyway, I've contemplated remaking the other games, but since I'm not even a beginner in terms of modding (I've only tried creating my own map once with Halo 2 Vista, and it was... horrible), I don't know if I'll actually ever try.

To be honest, the main reason I've asked and started this thread was simply to see if recreating the story and outline of the later games could be done in Halo CE, and to see if any such remakes even exist. If we can have maps like Extinction, which does have a working Scarab (albeit player controlled), then it should certainly be possible to recreate Halo 2, 3, and even Reach, albeit with Scarab portions in limited numbers and only in very carefully scripted sequences.

Of course, also think like a practical effects director in pre-CGI Hollywood. How do you get around limitations? By hiding things and using forced perspective by placing small versions of large objects in certain locations that cannot be reached yet are close enough to be seen in order to give the impression of them being farther a way and greater in scale than they actually are. The scarabs wouldn't actually move forward through a cityscape, they'd just raise and lower their legs while standing at certain vantage points and angles viewed by the player in order to give the impression that they're moving. Sure, it might be a cheat, but hey, if it worked in the real world, then why wouldn't the approach work in a virtual environment?

And as for importing bsps and environments and stuff? Yeah, I'd already figured that the CE engine would have trouble with that kind of thing. So, I'd go for the remake it from scratch approach. No, I wouldn't go for making it look like an exact replica, just something that resembles a basic layout of the original.

I don't care if the remade maps look just like Halo CE, really. And, let's be clear, I'd asked about this more or less just to find out if it could be done at all. Still, I've gotten people talking, so there's that. I look forward to knowing what you guys think of this reply of mine.
Edited by BioGoji1989 on Jan 2, 2018 at 11:41 PM


cippozzo
Joined: May 7, 2013

"I... I am a monument to all your sins."


Posted: Jan 3, 2018 09:59 AM    Msg. 13 of 14       
So, do it.


DeadHamster
Joined: Jun 8, 2014


Posted: Jan 4, 2018 12:39 AM    Msg. 14 of 14       
Quote: --- Original message by: OrangeJuice

the TLDR version of it is that Halo Custom Edition has no animators. At least none who know the ins-and outs of the animation graph system even though it is properly documented in the before you ask topic


Custom Weapon Animations
Object Animations, Coordinated with Scripts for Vehicle Dropoff
My very first Animation, stock pistol 7 years ago



But yeah, Custom Edition has no animators. <3

 

 
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